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 Re:

by RobertW on 2010/7/3 15:24:55


Yet God has chosen to reveal His purposes over time in what we would call Salvation History (Heilsgeschichte the German's call it). The Bible is a Revelation that builds line upon line towards the Revelation of Jesus Christ and the New Covenant. God chose to do it this way. It is unfathomable wisdom and majesty revealed in Historical events giving light to God's Eternal Covenant.
------------------------------------------------------------
I think we are stating the same thing in all this, yet if you see difference, praytell in what. If you wish to call it the remedy-(salvation)-story in German, have at it. I'm fluent, having friends and relatives who are full blooded germans (and act as though they are still there) as well as some serving in missions in Austria and the North Woods. I'm fluent in English, too.


The issue of Jesus both speaking and breathing on the disciples though, it's seen without debate that we are in disagreement. My observations of Jesus ministry on earth, whenever he spoke present tense, it happened then. Add to this the breathing and consider what Yaweh Elohim did in bringing Adam to the point of becoming a living soul.

Anything else is speculative.

Agapeo,
g
Acts 20:32

p.s. Those sermons from the 2008 revival conference on youtube you told me about are awesome. Thanks.

 2010/7/3 20:26
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
As far as shadows and types go, without the substance and anti-type already existing, there is no shadow nor type.



It is interesting how God brings revelation to us. In word studies I often find the first occurrence of the word I'm thinking about in the scripture and work my way through the bible looking at how God has built a history into that particular word. Baptism is a word we can do that with. This is very important because of what Paul tells us in Ephesians 4:4-6

[There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

1. One Body
2. One Spirit
3. One hope of our calling
4. One Lord
5. One faith
6. ONE BAPTISM
7. One God and Father of all...

My point earlier is that exegetically we cannot pluralize number 6 and allow 1, 2,3, 4, 5, and 7 to mean 'One'. In other words if 1, 2,3, 4, 5, and 7 mean 'One' then #6 must also mean 'One'. If there is really in fact just 'One' Baptism, then what baptism is that for there are many things called baptism in scripture. If we begin looking at the term Baptism we see that God was building revelation into the word baptism so that in the fulness of times He could reveal the One Baptism and draw from many historical events as well as concepts to build our understanding of what to expect when we receive the 'One' Baptism (the One that all others effectively point to).


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Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/3 20:28Profile
Christinyou
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Posts: 3706
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 Re:

Galatians 4:4-6 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

What is this fulness of time?

Gaebelein's Annoted Bible
Galatians 4:1



CHAPTER 4

1. Under the law in the state of minority. 1-3
2. The Son revealed to redeem. 4-5
3. Because ye are Sons; the Spirit of Sonship. 6-7
4. The backsliding Galatians. 8-20
5. The sons of the bondwoman and of the free woman. 21-31
Jewish believers were, before Christ had died, the children of God, and as such they did not differ from servants. They were in a state of minority, as children who do not know the father's thoughts, nor could they fully know God as Father.

"He compares the believer before the coming of Christ to a child under age, who has no direct relation with his father as to his thoughts, but who receives his father's orders, without his accounting for them to him, as a servant would receive them. He is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Thus the Jews, although they were heirs of the promises, were not in connection with the Father and His counsels in Jesus, but were in tutelage to principles that appertained to the system of the present world, which is but a corrupt and fallen creation. Their walk was ordained of God in this system, but did not go beyond it. We speak of the system by which they were guided, whatever divine light they might receive, from time to time, to reveal heaven to them, to encourage them in hope, while making the system under the rule of which they were placed yet darker. Under the law then, heirs as they were, they were still in bondage."--Synopsis

But a great change had taken place. "But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law, that He might redeem those under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons." God sent His Son from His bosom to become man and "made under the law." He took His place down here in two relationships. First with man, through the woman, and with the Jews, as born under the law. Sin and death came in by the woman; Christ came into this world by woman also. Through the law, man is under condemnation and Christ came as under that law. But that law was no bondage for Him. He fully worked out the righteousness of the law. Yet his righteous and holy life could not redeem those under the law. Redemption from the curse of the law was accomplished in the death of the Cross. And the glorious result of the coming of the Son of God and His finished work is for all believers in Him "the adoption of sons"--that is, placed, through grace, before God as sons. And because believing Jews and Gentiles are sons, through the efficacy of the redemption wrought by the Lord Jesus Christ, God sent the blessed proof and power of sonship. "He sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." The Holy Spirit was given as the seal of redemption, and as the joy of sonship. "Wherefore, thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ."

"Was it possible, then, that any could desire to put the Gentiles under the law, when they (the Jews) had been brought out from it themselves by the will of God, the work of Christ, and the witness of the Holy Spirit? What a gross inconsistency! What a subversion, not only of the truth of God revealed in the gospel, but also of redemption, which is its basis! For Christ bought off those that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons, bringing them, by grace, into a place of known salvation and intelligent joy in relation with our God and Father, out of that bondage and nonage which the law supposes."--W. Kelly

Then follows the appeal of the apostle to the backsliding Galatians, who were fast falling away from grace and turning to the weak and beggarly elements. Verses 8-10 are of much interest and significance. They were heathen, and knowing not God, they served idols. Now, as being converted, they had known God, or rather God had known them. Turning to Judaism, to the law with its ordinances, meant, for them, a turning back to the weak and beggarly elementary things in which they were as heathen. They were, practically, turning again to that which they had left--"how turn ye again?" As heathen they had ceremonies, different offerings, and they observed different days by which they tried to please their supposed gods. Ritualistic observances upon Christian ground are more than a perverted gospel: they are heathenish in principle. Some African fetich-priest attires himself in a fantastic costume. He takes a rattle, dances and mumbles something in an unintelligible way. Then he declares what he does will induce the gods to send rain. In a magnificent edifice caged "church" stands a man who wears different colored robes. This man goes through different ceremonies, bows and crosses himself, mumbles something in a foreign language, then lifts up a receptacle before which the people bow in worship. He claims that, through him, blessing comes upon the people. Both, the African heathen-priest and the ritualistic-priest follow the same principle, and the practice of the so-called "Christian priest" is as much heathenish as the practice of the other. And so as to the observance of special holy days, months and years. "Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain." The gospel knows nothing of the observance of days and seasons such as saint-days, Lent, etc. All these special saint-days and most of the feast-days kept in Christendom were taken from the heathen.

Then what a tender appeal follows! He reminds them of the former days when he preached first the gospel unto them. In the infirmity of the flesh, physical weakness, they had not despised nor rejected him, but received him as an angel of God, as the Christ whose blessed ambassador he was. Then they enjoyed great blessedness and would have plucked out their own eyes and given them to him. But where was their blessedness now? Had he become their enemy in speaking the truth to them? He addresses them as His little children "of whom I travail in birth again."

He needed, so to speak, to travail in birth afresh with them till Christ should be formed in them. Nevertheless, he calls them his children: his love inspired him with confidence, and yet filled his heart with uneasiness. He would have desired to be with them that he might change his voice, suiting it to their state; not only teaching them the truth, but doing whatever their need required. Mark here the deep love of the apostle. Moses, faithful as he was, grew weary of the burden of the people and said: Have I conceived all this people? have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me, Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child, unto the land which thou swearest unto their fathers? (Nu 11#19); but the apostle is willing to travail in birth with them as his children a second time, in order that their souls might be saved.

Verses 21-31 give an interesting, typical foreshadowing and contrast. As they were abandoning grace, he wants the law to speak to them. Abraham had two sons, one by Hagar, the bondmaid, born after the flesh; the other son was Isaac, the son of promise, born by Sarah, the free woman. Both illustrate the covenants of God. Mount Sinai, the law-covenant, which gendereth to bondage, is represented in Hagar and her son; the other, the covenant of promise, "Jerusalem which is above"--the mother of us all--it is the true church of God viewed in her heavenly state; she is free. He quotes Isa 54#1, "Rejoice thou, barren, that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not, for the desolate has many more children than she which hath an husband." These words are addressed to Jerusalem during the millennial kingdom, in the time of her promised restoration. Then Israel, redeemed and blessed, will look back and find that, during our age, this gospel-age, many more children were begotten by the gospel, during the time when Israel was cast off and Jerusalem trodden down by the Gentiles than at the time when Jerusalem flourished and enjoyed the favor of Jehovah. "Now, we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise." Those who believe and are saved by grace are, therefore, the true children of promise. But, as then, he that was born after the flesh persecuted "him that was after the Spirit, even so it is now." The Jews persecuted Paul for preaching the gospel. They opposed the gospel and all those who believed in Christ. But what was said about the bondwoman and her son? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the free woman." This has happened to Israel; she, for a time, is disowned and their house is left desolate. "So then, therefore, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free." It would be impossible to be children of both. Equally impossible is it to be under law and under grace. The two cannot exist together. We are children of the free woman and of her only and have nothing whatever to do with the law-covenant. We belong to a risen Christ, with whom we have died, who has borne the curse for us and bestowed upon us life and righteousness, and, therefore, we are free from the law, from its service and ceremonies. End.

If the Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ of the new covenant were available to old testament believers, why did Jesus Pray that the new covenant believers would not jus have the Holy Spirit with them but in them. Why must we be born again, born again to what? The Spirit of Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

The fulness of time is the total culmination of the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, which was in the mind of God and put to effective work in the incarnation of Christ.

This is not a favorite saying, but, There is no life in the Old testament. There is only life in the New Testament and its covenant in Christ Jesus our Lord, which without The Spirit of Christ rebirthed in us we are none of His.

Sorry this is so long;

In Christ until He is formed in us: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2010/7/3 20:29Profile









 Re:

by RobertW on 2010/7/3 15:52:50

God does not need the Old Covenant to remain in order to serve as a standard of conduct for the Born Again. In fact, to utilize the Old Covenant in attempting to be spiritual is to fall into the Galatian error.

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Galatians 3:3, 4)


The essence of the New Covenant that makes it totally incompatible with the old is that the genuine Born Again have BEGUN in the Spirit. That is always the question. Not has a person repeated a prayer, etc. The real question I think we have to employ is Paul's, "Having begin in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh?"

What makes flesh- 'Flesh' is that men and women are responding and doing other than what God is saying. A child of the flesh is as Ishmael- they are living in the same line of reasoning that brought forth Ishmael. Sarah knew what God had said- but when God tarried she would not wait and as a result suggested an alternate option to believing what God has said. She did what was right in her own eyes with no regard for the Word that is proceeding from the mouth of God. The Old Covenant allows people to move in a host of codified rules as if they are God's people while at the same time 'always resisting the Holy Ghost' (Acts 7). The New Covenant establishes a people that will live by every word that IS proceeding from the mouth of God. The Old Covenant simply cannot take a person to the level of God-pleasing and obedience that makes Him KING OF KINGS in the heart. One has to have begun in the Spirit so they can hear and obey the Spirit. Anything else, no matter how enticing, is Galatianism in some form or another.
------------------------------------------------------------

It's thought that you are grouping two covenants into one.

There is the Sinaitic Covenant which entailed the Laws of Moses, mediated through Angels, written by the hand of Moses. It is a result of delineating God's commandments, and a need for an order of worship. It was never intended to make one "righteous, but explained (in Dueteronomy 9-11 i think) the means to rule as peoples would fear our God in making us strong and prosperous. This is the Old Covenant. This was placed beside the Ark.

Within the Ark are the commands that are parcel to the Everlating Covenant and should be automatic to us unless we are decieved (I Jn. 5:2-3), being in effect before Sinai, and still in effect today. (It's thought you may be misunderstanding -(or possibly me?)- the concept of rest related in Heb. 4. The word is Sabbatismo, refering to "observing Shabbat" as the 4th command of the Everlasting Covenant. This is God's designated rest spoken of. In Galatians, it refers to festivals, new moons, and Sabbaths which are part of Old covenant delinieations of God's commandments.

IF the Old covenant is abolished, why do the prophecies in Isaiah after chapter 53 point to the time when world government shall be controlled from Jerusalem and the festivals of the Mosaic Law will be enforced?

Living by every word proceeding from the mouth of God does not exclude Mosaic Law.

Galatianism is a nice word for legalism.

If one does obey the Law to attain righteousness, one falls from grace.

If ones purpose is trusting God obediently, knowing He has our best good at heart (in making Him known) through our following His directions, this is hardly legalism -(Galatianism).

Leaving our first love, we cut off our relationship with God, all that remains is powerless legalism or antinomianism. Our God becomes form without His substance of Power and glory.

Gal. 2:20

Being truly growing into Christ, we let His mind be in us. It was in His mind to obey the Law and the prophets, because of this love for our Father, and from this a love for those around us.

It seems that both you and Ron may have this disease of seperating the spiritual from the physical?
(Das ist nie real: wird es nie erlaubt, so zu arbeiten!)

Being a child of God does not mean that we do not walk in the flesh. We just are not in accord with it, though we do fail to walk in the Spirit at various times. This does not make us children of Ishmael, darkness, nor the devil. What it says is that we are choosing to be dictated by the curse of the Law.

We are not made perfect in the flesh, yet we are not perfect in the spirit either. If we were walking perfect, we would not die.

Some day we shall know even as we are known, beholding the glory of God in the Face of Jesus. Until that day, let's press into translation from glory to glory.


Shalom,
gregg
Acts 20:32

edited and re-edited: for intermittent errors confusing meaning

 2010/7/3 21:32
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Ron and Robert,
There is failure here to account for the fact that Jesus was the Lamb slain BEFORE the foundation of the world.

As well, do you think that Jesus breathing on the disciples telling them to recieve the Holy Spirit was just a useless exercise without effect?

Several of the prophets were filled with the Holy Spirit, probably all of them, and Jesus refers to them as bretheren in Revelation and implies such at the onset of the sermon on the mount.



Greg
This is not a failure to account... it's just that we haven't got to that part yet. Christ was slain from the foundation of the world but the effective work of regeneration in individuals did not take place before the foundation of the world but takes place in our space/time experience.

We must give due weight to the statement of Christ regarding the coming of the Holy Spirit when he said...

the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. John 14:17 NKJV

That contrast between 'with you' and 'will be in you' makes it quite clear that the indwelling Spirit was not known to the disciples at that time but would be subsequently. The relationship between the disciples and the Spirit was going to be radically changed when the Spirit came.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/4 3:35Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Phillip

Quote:
The fulness of time is the total culmination of the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, which was in the mind of God and put to effective work in the incarnation of Christ.



I think the phrase simply means when the time was 'ripe'. Historically the incarnation took place at an amazing point in time when everything was ready. There were synagogues in most cities ready to preach the gospel. The Greek language was spoken throughout the Mediterranean. The Pax Romana meant that travel was much easier there being no borders in the one empire. The Roman navy had ended piracy in the Mediterranean. Judaism had its most magnificent temple and was morally bankrupt. The time was ripe.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/4 3:41Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

"For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law." Heb 7:12 NKJV

This verse holds an important truth. The law and the priesthood are inseparable. The Sinai (Old) Covenant had not only law but a priesthood. A single sin would have wrecked the covenant agreement if God had not made provision for atonement in the priesthood. Consequently the Old Covenant could only ever operate while the Levitical priesthood was operating. The 10 commandments, as we call them, were in effect a tenancy agreement between God who owned the land and the people of Israel who were the tenants.

The law included harvests festivals which could only be present when the people entered their land. Consequently there is a vital link between the Old Covenant and the land of Israel.

The writer to the Hebrews tells us that you cannot change the priesthood without changing the law. The New Covenant is a 'change' from one thing to another; it is not an amendment.

It was to the community of the Old Covenant that Christ said
"No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; for the patch pulls away from the garment, and the tear is made worse." Matt 9:16 NKJV

and

"And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins.” Mark 2:22 NKJV

The New Covenant is a new garment and a new wineskin.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/4 3:53Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Quote:
John the Baptist was the greatest OldTestament Prophet, yet notice the personal pronouns in this passage:

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire: (Matthew 3:11)

Note, he shall baptize YOU. Notice he did not include himself in that passage. Under inspiration of the Holy Spirit he apparently knew he would not live to see the prophesy he was making fulfilled. It was NOT his present experience, this Baptism with the Holy Ghost and Fire. He was filled with the Spirit as were many before him, but the Baptism he spoke of was the ONE Baptism that Paul spoke of in Ephesians.





We have in this age, set apart the day of Pentecost, as a day that marked some new improved work of God upon men's hearts. We use words like "in" to distinguish that new improved work. Yet Scripture does not make this distinction. We say that the OT teaches that the Spirit of God was cast upon men. We say that in the NT we see that the Spirit of God will be in men. And we mark the day of Pentecost as the day in which God changed His work upon His creation. But Scripture does not support this doctrine formulated by men. Listen to the exact words of Scripture.


Act 2:1 ¶ And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


In the above section of Scripture we find that the Holy Ghost filled them on the day of Pentecost.


This work of God is declared by Peter in the following Scripture....


Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:


In the above section of Scripture we find that Peter identifies the prophesy of Joel has come to bear upon those who were just filled by the Holy Ghost. In this prophesy, the Scriptures declare that God "will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh"...that "on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit: and they shall prophesy."

Therefore, the Scriptures, declare that the work of God, when He pours out of His Spirit "upon" men that this "event" filled them. And the purpose of this work is that His "servants" and His "handmaidens" "shall prophesy." This work of the Holy Ghost is manifested for the purpose that His people will know His words.

We have this same promise, this same work declared in the OT Scriptures.


Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.


Do you "see" the work and purpose described in these Scriptures?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/4 9:12Profile









 hey Ron

can i mess with your writing a bit? just bring it up to date a bit; you wrote:
__________________________________________________
"I think the phrase simply means when the time was 'ripe'. Historically the incarnation took place at an amazing point in time when everything was ready. There were synagogues in most cities ready to preach the gospel. The Greek language was spoken throughout the Mediterranean. The Pax Romana meant that travel was much easier there being no borders in the one empire. The Roman navy had ended piracy in the Mediterranean. Judaism had its most magnificent temple and was morally bankrupt. The time was ripe."
_______________________________________

(now i'm going to paste it in again, but substitute some new words, just to see how it reads:

I think the phrase simply means when the time was 'ripe'. Historically the incarnation took place at an amazing point in time when everything was ready. There were churches in most cities ready to preach the gospel. The English language was spoken throughout the globe. The Pax Americana/Global Economy meant that travel was much easier there being no "real" borders in the one global economy. The American military configured full spectrum dominance throughout the globe. Christianity, in its myriad of denominations had its most magnificent churches and mega-churches, which included vast televised empires and was morally bankrupt. The time was ripe.

how you think that reads?

true?

 2010/7/4 12:06









 Re:

by philologos on 2010/7/3 23:35:34

the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. John 14:17 NKJV
------------------------------------------------------------
This is another issue altogether,related but seperate. (See, all your posts re:The Holy Spirit have been read through, and Jeremy was at a loss for words, yet i am not.)

Regarding this verse:
Who is the Truth?
and
Who dwelled with the disciples?

You do not understand 'echad'.

Case in point:
God is a decanity:
El<--the Father 1+
Yahshuvah<--the Son 1+
The Holy Spirit<--Shekinah 1+
The 7 spirits of God<--? 7=10
...or would that make 9, the Holy Spirit being one of these seven Spirits mentioned in Rev. 5:6?

____________________________________________________________
Ron:
That contrast between 'with you' and 'will be in you' makes it quite clear that the indwelling Spirit was not known to the disciples at that time but would be subsequently. The relationship between the disciples and the Spirit was going to be radically changed when the Spirit came.
------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, of course it radically changed for the disciples,
yet this does not discount the fact that some of the prophets were filled with the Spirit(s?) of God. It was never written of any of the 12+108 being filled til after Pentecost.
____________________________________________________________
Ron:

Greg
This is not a failure to account... it's just that we haven't got to that part yet. Christ was slain from the foundation of the world but the effective work of regeneration in individuals did not take place before the foundation of the world but takes place in our space/time experience.

We must give due weight to the statement of Christ regarding the coming of the Holy Spirit when he said...
------------------------------------------------------------
RE: last para., and more on Holy Spirt was addressed above.

It was never stated that the Pentecost infilling was or was not different. It is recognized here, experiencing this infilling and outpouring is not possible without constant recognition and abiding in taking up Yahshuvah's cross as my own daily.

Be continually being filled with the Holy Spirit: Eph. 5:17, 18.

God Bless,
gregg
Acts 20:32

 2010/7/4 14:04





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