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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Sons or children

Dave
I had intended to mention this. I think that this truth may have obscured by the KJV translation.

"But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:25–26 KJV

whereas the NKJV has...

"But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:25–26 NKJV

The KJV often does not distinguish between children and sons. From my studies there is definitely a sense of likeness associated with the word 'son' that does not always carry to the word for 'child'.

The KJV of Gal 3:26 is tragic. It really messes up what is clearly Paul's 'punch line'.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/4 11:34Profile
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 Re:

Ron said, "There is some justification for distinguishing between two different kinds of faith..."

And so this could also account for what John said: "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..." (1 Jn. 5.1).

For Abraham, though he had justifying faith, was he born of God?

...But my thinking is that maybe it's not two different kinds of faith, but the same faith at two different stages of development. Jesus, we are told, is the author and perfector of faith. Faith is not a static thing, but a living growing thing.

Perhaps this accounts for what Paul had in mind when he said the righteousness of God is revealed (in the Gospel) "from faith to faith" (Rom. 1.17).

(And incidentally, Robertson, Word Pictures in the Greek New Testament, points out there's no article here: it's "a righteousness of God," that is, a "God-kind of righteousness, not a "law" kind of righteousness, that the Gospel reveals.)

So... there's justifying faith, and then in a further development of faith, the faith of Christ, the faith by which Christ dwells in the heart by the Spirit, the faith that Paul had in mind when he said the life he now lived in the flesh he lived by faith, that of the Son of God (or relative to the Son of God, as you suggest).

The faith of the Gospel seems to be a particular quality of faith, and we are admonished to contend for it (Phil. 1.27, Jude 3). And Paul says the ultimate fulness of faith actually requires a corporate expression: "Till we ALL come in (unto) the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect Man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ..." (Eph. 4.13).


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Allan Halton

 2010/8/4 13:34Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3706
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 Re:

If you look at Abraham and Thomas, the faith they had was by their own senses. The Born Again Faith is believing without seeing. These are those that Jesus said to Thomas are, "blessed". That Faith has to come by Jesus Christ, "Ye must be born again or you cannot see the things of the Kingdom of God". There must be a supernatural Faith that came at Pentecost, that those The Father has given to the Son, WILL BELIEVE. This is all part of the mystery revealed to Paul and preached to the whole world through Paul and "My Gospel". Christ in you the Hope of Glory, The Holy Spirit in you by the Promise of Christ and answered prayer by the Father, "with you and will be in you". Even the Father with the Son makes His abode with us also.

Mark 8:34-38 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

My Cross is the Cross of Christ, "I am crucified with Christ" Gal 2:20. If I am in the Spirit the flesh is dead.
I died with Christ on the Cross and it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me. By His Faith I have lost my old man life and now alive unto God by the Son.

Mr 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Ac 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Ac 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

Ro 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

Ro 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Ro 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

1Co 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

1Co 9:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

Eph 6:19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

Php 1:7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.

Php 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

Paul's declaration of "MY GOSPEL", By the Faith of Jesus Christ we believe.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

By whose work are we Perfect? This also must include His Faith working in me.

In Christ: Phillip




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Phillip

 2010/8/4 14:31Profile
philologos
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 Re:

I just remembered that John Wesley used to distinguish two kinds of faith. Some challenged him that he must have had faith to visit the prisoners and travel to America as a missionary.. Wesley's answer was...

"I had even then the faith of a servant, though not that of a son"

Journal Vol 1 p422

Charles Wesley's hymns sometimes use the adjective 'filial' as distinct from 'servile'.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/4 14:45Profile
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Joined: 2005/11/2
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Ca.

 Re:

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!

Amen


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Phillip

 2010/8/4 15:50Profile









 Re:

The faith of Abraham was not based on his own senses.

God promised, Abraham rested all his thoughts, words, and actions in God being faithful to His covenant of promise, and what resulted in his lifetime was only a foretaste.


He believed what God promised and much of it still remains to be physically manifested.



Love, Hope, and Faith,
gregg

...I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
Acts 20:31-32

 2010/8/4 17:04
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3706
Ca.

 Re:

Genesis 17:3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

Pretty convincing reason to believe, by Abraham's outward senses. Just like Thomas, show me the holes in your hands and wound in your side, then I will believe.

Ge 17:17 Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear?
Ge 17:18 And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!
Ge 17:22 And he left off talking with him, and God went up from Abraham.

Again, pretty convincing. Has God come down to you and talked to you and then left and went up from you lately?

Again sense faith, not believing faith of Christ in us.

Genesis 18:2-3 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

No wonder Abraham believed. Has God sent beings from Heaven to you? Not me.

Genesis 19:27 And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the LORD:

I could go on and on and on, with evidence that was provided to all of Abraham's senses, but No Faith from Abraham on His own. Abraham's righteousness is only counted to him. The birthed son's of God are made righteous because of Christ in them. 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2010/8/4 19:41Profile









 Re:

I could go on and on and on, with evidence that was provided to all of Abraham's senses, but No Faith from Abraham on His own. Abraham's righteousness is only counted to him. The birthed son's of God are made righteous because of Christ in them. 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

In Christ: Phillip

------------------------------------------------------------

I could go on and on how at times past when needing reassurance, God has literally put the fear of Him in me...and it has never left. Yes, i have been sent beings from heaven, and not only i saw them, nor was i alone struck with fear so strong that composure is gone completely.

Yes, Abraham needed things to bring him further along, yet you start at Genesis 17, and leave out the beginnings of what Abraham did when God made the initial promise.

What you say is speaking on contradiction to Hebrews 11 and what it says of Abraham in Romans:

Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb:  He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom. 4.15-22

Maybe i misunderstood what you said at first, but this is what is attempted to be pointed out, true God is the source of faith(fulness), and as we grow in (relationship through)Christ, it is imputed to us from God in greater measure...and i am with Robert on this: God does not do the trusting in Him for you.

(It really doesn't matter what it takes for God to get an individual to move according to His direction. Some it only "Yes, Lord" and others, like me, He knows that i see closer relationship relative to the manifestation of His presence and power, His clear voice and His clear direction ...so He uses things like this to move me on.

"Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe."

I'm just not always that blessed, and apparently Abraham wasn't always either.

The point is, what may take physical confrontation, as in the case of examples like Abraham, Yakov, and Moshe, for some maybe it does not.

Is that the issue?

No. It is that God imputes faith by whatever means He knows will move the follower to walk pleasing Him, in the faith of God.

Are you taking only one side of the account and discounting the final results of it?

The contrast between what i was before and what He has brought me into to date is like the difference between night and day, whether i have moved forward willingly, or kicking and screaming (until He shows me whose boss.)

Gladly it can be said, this has not been the case for over 7 years... then again, that fear He put in me has not left either, but rather has grown.

(this is why it is so troubling to see others spout off half-truths or falsehoods, and to see it in myself when corrected ...it is either repentance and conversion, or judgement follows.)

God is so good and so patient. If it were up to me dealing with me as if i were in God's shoes, i would have struck myself with lightning already.

God Bless,
g

 2010/8/4 23:06









 Re:

Did Paul believe because we are saved by grace through faith that we could ignore God's Law?

" Do we make void the Law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we cause it to stand! "
Romans 3:31

 2010/8/4 23:37
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

from a previous posting...
"In the Abrahamic covenant the seal of the covenant was circumcision. Circumcision was a private and a covert sign.
In the Sinai Covenant the seat of the covenant was the Sabbaths. Sabbath keeping was a very public and overt sign.

what is the seal of the covenant in the New Covenant?"

The seal of the Abrahamic covenant was a brand-mark in his flesh by which God said "this is mine".

The overt seal of the Sinai Covenant was the Sabbath, a mark on the community by which God said "this is mine".

The seal of the New Covenant is the gift of the Spirit. A mark by which God says "this is mine".

"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." Rom 8:9 NKJV

This last verse is sometimes interpreted as though it were saying "all who are Christ's have the Spirit". That is not what it says, this verse says "if you do not have the Spirit you are not 'his' in the sense of being united with him in the New Covenant.

There is a moving passage in Ezekiel where God reminds his people of the effect of entering into covenant with him.

"“When I passed by you again and looked upon you, indeed your time was the time of love; so I spread My wing over you and covered your nakedness. Yes, I swore an oath to you and entered into a covenant with you, and you became Mine,” says the Lord GOD." Ezek 16:8 NKJV


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/5 5:10Profile





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