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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Heydave on 2010/8/3 13:53:25 writes:
"However I think that the Old Covenant Law was more than just a national calling (although it was that), but we are told by Paul that the purpose of the Law was to act as a 'guardian to lead us to Christ' (Galatians 3:23-24)."

Hi Dave
There is a whole section in Gal 3 & 4 where Paul uses personal pronouns such as 'we, us, our' in contrast to 'you, your'. The classic switch is in

"But after faith has come, WE are no longer under a tutor. 26 For YOU are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of YOU as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Gal 3:25–27 NKJV

As we read the passages surrounding this statement we see Paul is speaking from his ancient heritage as a Jew. The Galatian churches had come under a teaching that seemed to allow 'faith in Christ' for the initial steps but then insisted on a keeping of the law to ensure maturity. Paul's point, in Gal 4) is that the period of the law was the time of Israel's childhood. He distinguishes between 'children' and 'slaves' but says before the time appointed by the Father there is no essential difference.

"Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so WE, when WE were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that WE might receive the adoption as sons." Gal 4:1–5 NKJV

There is a distinction between child and son here which is important.

In the Roman culture 'huiothesia' or son placing pointed to a right of passage in which the child became an adult. The Jews were destined for this, it was their heritage. During the time of the nations childhood they were under child conductors and tutors but now that 'faith' has come that is changed...

"But before faith came, WE were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was OUR tutor to bring US to Christ, that WE might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, WE are no longer under a tutor." Gal 3:23–25 NKJV

This is the testimony of a Jew who has entered into his ancient inheritance not by 'keeping the law' but by receiving the Spirit. The false teachers seem to have been suggesting that the new converts needed a similar 'childhood' by being brought under the law. Paul is adamant... you are sons! We Gentiles too enter into that ancient heritage promised to Abraham but not by law-keeping but by receiving the Spirit of sonship.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/3 14:23Profile
philologos
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 Re:

Christinyou on 2010/8/3 14:26:20 writes:
"I Have said before, we don't get this Grace covenant in parts and pieces. We get the whole bucket of Grace, The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit by virtue of new birth, The Seed being of the Father."

Phillip
In the Abrahamic covenant the seal of the covenant was circumcision. Circumcision was a private and a covert sign.
In the Sinai Covenant the seat of the covenant was the Sabbaths. Sabbath keeping was a very public and overt sign.

what is the seal of the covenant in the New Covenant?


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/3 14:31Profile
ADisciple
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Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

"But before faith came, WE were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was OUR tutor to bring US to Christ, that WE might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, WE are no longer under a tutor." Gal 3:23–25 NKJV

I'm wondering, Ron, how you see this faith that's spoken of here: "...Before faith came... after faith has come..."

...And how that compares with the faith Abraham had.


_________________
Allan Halton

 2010/8/3 14:47Profile









 Re:

As previously emphasized over and over again, the New Covenant validated all prior covenants. Now all God's covenants (of promise) have been made complete and are fulfilled in Jesus Christ ...yet in this age that is rushing headlong toward it's final day, all these promises are appropriated by trusting dependent reliance on/in Jesus Christ.

(God does not give you the faith to do it all yourself. From start to finish of our salvation, it is through God's grace, ALL the priveledges available -(over 8000 promises from Genesis to Revelation)- are imputed to(wards) us through the authority posessed through Jesus' finished work.)

Some day, faith will be sight.

God can call things that be not, as though they already were because He is not a man that He should lie. Through faith(fulness) towards God, man fulfills His end of the covenant through sacrafice and trusting God to FULFILL what He said He will do.

In God fulfilling all former covenants in Jesus, being both the representatives and sacrafices of man cutting covenant with God, he made all former covenant promises valid, not merely in letter, but in spirit, making all things promised filled toward completion.





For example, in regard to God's first promise toward covenant being fulfilled with man, God said to Adam and Eve:

"And I will put enmity between thee (the Netsach=serpent/whisperer/sorcerer)
and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. " (Gen. 3.15)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then God showed man the covering through sacrafice, for the scripture states, " Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them." (Gen. 3.21)
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We can be sure Gen. 3.15 is promise regarding the coming Messiah, as the seed is in man. Yet God said regarding this, " I will put enmity . . . between thy seed and her seed," hinting to what Isaiah's prophecied as the Messiah would be born of a virgin (7.14).

Now consider that Hebrew word Netsach. The Greek word for this is Nazar, from which we get Nazareth (house/threshold of the serpent) and Nazarene (the serpentine/of the serpent).




Never forget Jesus was known as "Jesus of Nazareth."

Matt 26.71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.
Mark 1.24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.
Mark 10.47 And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me.
Mark 14.67 And when she saw Peter warming himself, she looked upon him, and said, And thou also wast with Jesus of Nazareth.
Mark 16.6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
Luke 4.34 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.
Luke 18.37 And they told him, that Jesus of Nazareth passeth by.
Luke 24.19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
John 1.45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
John 18.5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them. John 18.7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.


Acts 2.22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Acts 6.14 For we have heard him say, that this Jesus of Nazareth shall destroy this place, and shall change the customs which Moses delivered us.
Acts 10.38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
Acts 22.8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
Acts 26.9 I verily thought with myself, that I ought to do many things contrary to the name of Jesus of Nazareth


From Netsach we also get the word -(Heb.)- Netzer, meaning branch/root. In the progressive revelation of God's testimony, we today understand Jesus to be that manifestation spoken of as the 'root' of Jesse. He is also in prophecy symbolized as a 'branch'. Jesus Himself said He is the true vine, which is biologically known to be 'root' and 'branch' in one.

Why did Paul then, in writing of the difference between being under the Law and walking faithful to God by His grace, right in the middle of this discourse write, "...Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree..." (Gal 3.13)

In Mosaic Law, what had been known already was made clear, "And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: 23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance." (Duet. 21.22-23)

The curse came through the serpent 'hanging' on a tree, so appropriately, for this covenant of promise to be fulfilled, Jesus had to undo what had been done.

We see the shadow of this event while Isreal wandered the wilderness:

4 And they journeyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red sea, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way. 5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for there is no bread, neither is there any water; and our soul loatheth this light bread. 6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. 7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. 8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. (Num. 21.4-9).

Jesus Prophecied His fulfilled promise to Adam, when speaking to Nicodemus, he said, " as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (Jn 3:14-15)


We saw several places where the name and title "Jesus of Nazareth" was used, and often this was in recognition of His mission: Establishing the New Covenant.

Peter, in his first letter also speaks of this very sacrafice for Adam (and all his children), ending with a quote from Isaiah 53:
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose bruisings-and-cuts you were healed. (I Pet. 2.24)

Look what Peter told the Sanhedrin when they held he and John to give account for the raising of a lame man through the authority of the name of Jesus:
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. (Acts 5.30)


=================================================
Side-note:

It is mostly dispensationalism as culprit that has been responsible for many believing God does not heal anymore, as well as wondering if he will.

The Bible makes clear ( in several places) that God's purpose in redemption (through the New Covenant), is to provide man wholeness in spirit and soul and body as well as enabling relationship with our Heavenly Father:

23 Also from himself, God of shalom make you holy completely; and your whole being : the spirit and the soul and the body be preserved without fault at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (I Thess. 5.23).

If you have a child, do you ever make sure that they get sick?

Why would our Heavenly Father do this?

If it is ever God's will for you to suffer the results of Adam's curse in sickness or disease, then your doctor is the minister of satan, and the nurses are his demonic consorts ...and you are sinning against God's will by trying to get better.

One of the Redemptive names, among others Jesus validated in his sacrafice, is "Yaweh Rapha." "I AM your healing" has been brought into completeness through Jesus making fresh the covenants of promise.

This too is recieved by dependent trusting reliance on Jesus, not wondering if God will heal you from whatever.

Jesus bore the curse of the Law of sin and death in all former covenants, and made fully available every promise in them.

So how many people that you know of has Jesus touched and made sick?
=================================================

To filfill is to make completely valid and not to bring to an end.

The whole Torah has never been abolished. Rather, it has been made completely valid.

All prophecies are all still in motion, too.

There is nothing that has been abolished or done away with.

The only metathesis is that Jesus, in the order of Malki-Tzedek, has provided supercedence as our King and High-Priest forever. He has alleviated the Levites of their duties (for the time being).
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
(Mt. 5.16-19)





All covenants God has promised to man are now in fuller force than ever before, because Jesus fulfilled them all:

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. " (Gen. 3.15)

"And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS." (Jn. 19.19)

If the Sinai Covenant were abolished, then the several proceeding it had to be abolished as well.

Former covenant sets precedent for every covenant following.

No precedent, nothing follows.



Shalom,
g

p.s. Remember that fulfill means to fill full completely.

 2010/8/3 20:40
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3705
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: ""Some day, faith will be sight.""

Amen

Quote: ""Never forget Jesus was known as "Jesus of Nazareth." ""

2 Corinthians 5:16-18 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

To the Born Again, He is no longer Jesus of Nazareth. We know Him by His Spirit that is in us.

Romans 8:8-10 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

It is no longer I who live, but Christ who liveth in me.

Phillip


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Phillip

 2010/8/3 21:11Profile
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 Re:

ADisciple on 2010/8/3 16:47:15 writes:
"I'm wondering, Ron, how you see this faith that's spoken of here: "...Before faith came... after faith has come..."

...And how that compares with the faith Abraham had."

This is a good question. Some time ago we had a thread on SI relating to 'the faith of Christ' of 'faith in Christ'. There is some justification for distinguishing between two different kinds of faith...

"Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all" Rom 4:16 NKJV
This speaks of the 'faith of Abraham'. It clearly means the kind of faith that Abraham had ie what has sometimes been called 'justifying faith'.

whereas in the KJV we have...
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Gal 2:16 KJV

"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:" Phil 3:9 KJV

in each of these instances the Greek format is exactly the same. The faith of Abraham is clearly justifying faith but what is the faith of Christ. Some have said that this must be Christ's own faith given to the believer but the more I think about it the more I am unsure of this interpretation. I think it is more likely to mean 'Christ centred faith', the faith that belongs to Christ or is Christ orientated.

So what is Paul referring to when he says 'when faith came'. If, as I believe, faith is right response to revelation, then only 'in the fulness of time' was that revelation available and that 'kind' of faith became possible. But because 'faith is right response to revelation' once Christ has been manifested there is no going back. To go back is to reject the revelation.

Abraham's faith was in God. Abraham believed God... He had no vision of Calvary but leaned his trust hard upon God. The Hebrew word 'believe' means to put all your weight on something and is, in fact, the word 'amen'. Abraham leaned hard upon God and 'amen-ed' the word that had been revealed to him'. This faith was reckoned to him for righteousness.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/4 4:00Profile
Heydave
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Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re:

philologos wrote:

Quote:
This is the testimony of a Jew who has entered into his ancient inheritance not by 'keeping the law' but by receiving the Spirit. The false teachers seem to have been suggesting that the new converts needed a similar 'childhood' by being brought under the law. Paul is adamant... you are sons! We Gentiles too enter into that ancient heritage promised to Abraham but not by law-keeping but by receiving the Spirit of sonship.



Ron, Thanks for this explanation. I can see and agree with the point you make here that Paul is speaking about the Jews under the law.

I was not suggesting that as believers we need to be under the tutor of the law, but that this was part of the purpose of the law for those under the Old Covenant. However do you think that principle applies in some way to all unbelievers today. Not that they are under the old covenant law, but that the moral standard of the ten commandments is a witness of God's righteous requirement on all men? Otherwise what do folk repent from and how do they know they are sinners, if not by this law? Is not the position Apostle Paul explains in Romans 7 needful for all men to bring them to the place of New covenant deliverance in Romans 8?


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Dave

 2010/8/4 5:42Profile
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 Re:

Heydave on 2010/8/4 7:42:28 writes:
"However do you think that principle applies in some way to all unbelievers today. Not that they are under the old covenant law, but that the moral standard of the ten commandments is a witness of God's righteous requirement on all men? Otherwise what do folk repent from and how do they know they are sinners, if not by this law?"

Pauls speaks of the 'work' of the law. Not 'works' in this instant but 'work'.

Rom. 2:15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

'works of the law' would be the attempt at diy righteousness, but the 'work' of the law is only used here in Romans. It seems to me that it point to the moral code that is behind the ten commandments. We often speak of the 10 commandments as though that part of the law should continue but the ten commandments are only a part of the law that was given at Sinai. and even within this 'ten' evangelicals struggle as to what they should do with the Sabbath commandment.

However, behind the 'moral' aspects of the Sinai Covenant is a universal 'moral code' that bears witness even to those who have never heard of Sinai. Lie Detectors, as they are usually called, are based on the fact that when we lie there are tiny reactions in our body. We may appear calm but somewhere something has set off the fire alarm.

Conscience is the way we access this inner knowledge. Paul constantly speaks of conscience and often in a way we would not have expected. He speaks of being made manifest to the conscience of those he spoke to.

The man who judges another, Rom 2, admits by that very judgment that there is a moral dimension to life and having admitted it he must answer before that court. It is interesting in Romans 7 that the 'law' which got him hooked was an internal one... thou shalt not covet. All the others could produce a compliance and a sense of achievement but no external action could satisfy the inner conviction that he had wanted what did not belong to him.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/4 8:35Profile









 Re: A New Covenant


philologos said
'Some have said that this must be Christ's own faith given to the believer but the more I think about it the more I am unsure of this interpretation.'

Part of my testimony is that 'faith' was one of the first things I had to ask God to 'give' me. I didn't really know what I was getting! Only that I had been and was being plagued by unbelief.

I found it hugely comforting to understand that the Son had to believe the word of the Father in order to move forward in His (Christ's) ministry (just as Abraham and many other OT saints also had done).

In the end, Christ's faith was vindicated by His real-time incarnation, His resurrection and ascension and the out-pouring of the Holy Spirit begun at Pentecost.

All these are vital aspects of 'the sovereignty of God', in that if the whole work of Christ did procure the possibility of our adoption as sons.

In other words, is there any difference between 'the faith of' Abraham and 'the faith of' Christ, except in the content of God's word to them which they had to believe (which was, of course, of an entirely different order from each other)?

 2010/8/4 8:58
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Alive-to-God on 2010/8/4 10:58:06 writes:
"In other words, is there any difference between 'the faith of' Abraham and 'the faith of' Christ, except in the content of God's word to them which they had to believe (which was, of course, of an entirely different order from each other)?"

I think you have expressed it well. This would be my position at the present time.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/8/4 11:27Profile





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