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Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3706
Ca.

 Re:

2 Cor 3:17

This I take to be the sentiment of the passage, though expositors have been greatly divided in regard to its meaning. Thus explained, it does not mean absolutely and abstractly that the Lord Jesus was "a Spirit," but that he was the sum, the essence, the end, and the purport of the Mosaic rites, the spirit of which Paul had spoken in 2Co 3:6, as contradistinguished from the letter of the law.
And where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. This is a general truth designed to illustrate the particular sentiment which he had just advanced. This Spirit is not the another Comforter, the Holy Spirit.

Making the Spirit of Christ into the Holy Spirit is denying Pentecost and John's statement, "He will baptize with the Holy Spirit and fire". Christ Himself makes distinction of the Comforter and Himself. John 14:18-22 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

Is the Holy Spirit Comforter the Spirit of Christ?

Answer; John 14:23-27 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

"But the Comforter which is the Holy Ghost", Not I am the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name and He is me. Never, this is one of Christendom's greatest mistakes, making the Spirit of Christ who is life, the Holy Spirit Teacher and sealer of that life. John 14, 15, 16, 17, distinguish thoroughly the work of the Holy Spirit Teacher and the Life of the Believer The Spirit of Christ.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2010/8/1 23:07Profile









 Re: Holy Spirit

Phillip, you can call it the dividing line of expositor's, but if you look at the historic origins of the concept of the Holy Spirit being something-other-than-Christ -(aka: antichrist)- the believer is no longer looking to Jesus as the source of power, revelation, sanctification, and so on.

To call it sentiment is a quite a bit too light a treatment of something that says either you do or do not know God's name. If one does or doesn't know the name of the Holy Spirit determines how much one is, or is not, His people, respectively.

The 3in1 concept was invented and developed through the devisings of two Roman Catholic theologians named Tertullian and Origen, more than a century after the privitive church went underground (literally), through the persecution of Romanism.

Without going into to much detail presently, the background of third century orthodoxy on the subject of the Trinity cannot be found in the Bible, but in Greek philosophical writings. The Roman Catholic New Theological Dictionary acknowledges the Spirit is never the explicit object of NT worship, nor is the Spirit ever represented in NT discourse as interacting in an interpersonal way with the Father and the Son.
Later in the same article, modern Catholic scholars, discussing the origins of orthodox teaching on the Trinity, blazonly admit pagan influences of noe-platonism and hellenistic magick formed the backbone of this theological invention.

............................................................
In Isaiah 6 and in Revelation, who is the one proclaimed to be holy?

Jesus came in the flesh and took on the form of a man. A man is spirit, has a soul, and lives in a body.

Why would anybody think that if Jesus is holy, his spirit is not?

To say that He has the holy spirit or 7 spirits of God (Rev. 5:6, 3:1) by no means detracts from who Jesus is. Rather, it proves more-so that He is God's manifested revelation to all mankind.

It might be convenient to quote Jn. 14:23-27 in support of 3in1, yet to disregard what comes immediately before it--

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. (Jn 14:15-20)
--is a bit shortsighted, don't you think?

In fact, consider that whole discourse through chapter 16 and see if you do not come to a different conclusion than this theology that was invented through the devisings of Babylon, the Mother of Prostitutes.

And while you are reading, keep in mind the fact that Jesus when speaking about himself in any other regard than the immediate present moment, spoke of Himself in the third person (,such as "the son of man" in Jn. 3:13).

Why did this come up now?

Anyway, "Spirit of Christ" is actually saying, "Spirit of God's-Annointed" ...and who is that?


The Shalom
of Jesus Christ
be with you,
gregg

 2010/8/2 2:02
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3706
Ca.

 Re:


Home Founders CL USA CL Internat'l LIS Magazine BookStore Contact Us CL News
The Error of the One Gospel (and Christ being the Holy Spirit.)
By Warren Litzman



There are great numbers of believers who do not know there is a final gospel. For centuries theologians have erroneously maintained that there is only one gospel in the Bible. This is grave error but worse is the fact that such untruth has kept multitudes unaware that Christ lives in them and is their only life to God (Gal. 2:20). Why would anyone maintain such an idea when the Scriptures are so clear? I see that there are at least five reasons for this grave oversight and confusion of interpretation.


1) When believers are denied the facts of the seven dispensations in the Bible, they can never know who God is talking to or why. The study of the different dispensations open up the fact that God had a different message in each one of the dispensations. When you see this it becomes simple to see that God had a different message for the Gentiles. While God has but one plan it is broken into many different parts. Seeing this difference is knowing your Bible.


2) Unless you know the difference between the ministries of Jesus of Nazareth and Jesus our Lord, you can never understand the final gospel. When Jesus of Nazareth was sent to Israel He came to His own, but His own received Him not. The facts concerning His coming to Israel is one great truth, but Jesus, the Lord of our life, was sent to live in believers, whether Jews or Gentiles. Such an idea as this is not an extension of the work or words of Jesus of Nazareth. While it is the same Jesus that healed the sick, raised the dead, cast out devils and performed miracles and is the same Jesus that lives in believers today, the gospel for these two different works of God require two different messages.


3) This confusion over the final gospel exists because of the denial, by many, of the Apostle Paul’s message which he called my gospel. Paul must be accepted as God’s last voice for the ultimate truth. He is the last God appointed Apostle, he is the final teacher of grace and his words alone set the pattern for modern believers “Follow me as I follow Christ (I Cor. 11:1).” Unless you follow Paul it will be difficult to know Christ in His fullness as Paul says three different times, “God gave the final gospel to me to give to you” (Eph. 3:17, Col. 1:25, I Cor. 9:16-17).


4) Most believers do not know the radical division there is in the Scriptures. That is the difference between prophecy and the mystery. Prophecy occupies at least 4/5 of the Bible and is based on law and legalism. Paul’s teaching on grace is the message to the born-again and only occupies 1/5 of the Bible. The final gospel, the mystery, is to be found mostly in the 1/5. This by no means nullifies the 4/5 of the Bible.


5) The misplacement and the misuse of the Holy Spirit has kept many from the final truth. Most have erroneously taught the Holy Spirit is Christ. They teach that the believer is only “in Christ” when the believer receives the Holy Spirit. However, the life is only in the Son, Christ’s Spirit is joined to our spirit, and the Holy Spirit is joined to our soulish part (the mind) and is the teacher of the Christ-life.

Christ-life Fellowship
PO Box 170307 Dallas, TX 75217-0307 USA

litzman@christ-life.org

Christ is our Life, our only life. The Holy Spirit will be with us forever in our soulish part, teaching us in our minds who Christ is. When we See Christ the Holy Spirit will still be in us and Christ's Spirit will be our life, our new nature our new creation life, a new creature, a son of God by the Incorruptable Seed of the Father, Christ in you the Hope of Glory.

In Christ: Phillip



_________________
Phillip

 2010/8/2 4:14Profile
RainMan
Member



Joined: 2010/4/21
Posts: 227


 Re:

Is the Holy Spirit a distinct personality?
Like paul said “now we know in part….” There were things that were a mystery even to the apostles. But here are a few considerations.

Matthew 28:18-20 (New International Version)
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Jesus himself makes the distinction of all three personalities. In Acts and the epistles we see the spirit often spoke "expressly". We can also deduce that the Spirit never SPOKE(verb) of his own accord but would only speak what he would HEAR(verb).

John 16
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

I think someone asked what the Holy Spirit’s name is if he is indeed a distinct personality. If we don’t know what the holy Spirit’s name is how can you baptise anyone?



from adam to mosses God was simply known as elohim (plural) and when mosses pressed for a name God responded by saying "i am that i am" =YHWH

If God name is I AM that I AM (I will be what i will be)

then if Elohim is one and Elohim is YHWH
YHWH is The Father
YHWH is The Son
YHWH is The Holy Spirit

Yet the father and the son are one and The Spirit of the Father is the Spirit of the Son?

3 distinct persona's but one YHWH. Some say the trinity could have been influenced by pagan religions(partially correct). But what of pagan religions that were also influenced by the Torah and christianity. I was listening to a former muslim talk about Jesus (of the Koran) breathing into a clay dove and the dove becoming a living creature(its obvious were this imagery is from) so pagan religions having similar symbolism isn't to far fetched. I

Hebrews 10:12, & 15 "But He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God. . . . And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us"

John 15:26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness of Me." (see also John 14:16-17)

[ARTICLE]
Isaiah 61:1 called the Holy Spirit Lord-Yehovah:
"Ruach-Adonai-Yehovah [hwIhy] yn:doa} j'Wr] is upon me, because Yehovah has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the broken hearted, To proclaim liberty to captives, and freedom to prisoners."
Paul in Romans 8:9 calls the Holy Spirit the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Jesus: "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit-of-God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit-of-Christ, he does not belong to Him." Paul tells us here very plainly that Jesus Christ is Yehovah God in the flesh and that the Holy Spirit is His Spirit, God’s Spirit.
Here again we see the Trinity involved in Redemption.
H.A. Ironside wrote in his book The Holy Trinity:
"The doctrine of the Trinity is denied by various groups, from different standpoints. Some have insisted from olden days that God is simply a Trinity in manifestation. In the Old Testament they say it was the manifestation of God as the Father; when Christ was here it was the manifestation of God as the Son; now it is the manifestation of God as the Holy Spirit. But that is absolutely contrary to the Word itself. It was the Lord Jesus Christ who came to reveal the Father, and while here on earth spoke of coming from My Father and going to My Father and He speaks of sending the Holy Spirit; it was the Holy Spirit who witnessed to the glorified, finished work of Christ the Son. Scripture is very careful in the use of pronouns."
John 15:26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness of Me." (see also John 14:16-17)
Jesus made plain that God is Father and Son and Holy Spirit.
1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one in agreement." (1 John 5:7)
•
John Wesley wrote in a sermon on the Trinity concerning this passage:
"I would insist only on the direct words, unexplained, just as they lie in the text: ‘There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: And these three are one.’ 5. ‘As they lie in the text :’ — but here arises a question: Is that text genuine? Was it originally written by the Apostle, or inserted in later ages? Many have doubted of this; and, in particular, the great light of the Christian church, lately removed to the Church above, Bengelius, — the most pious, the most judicious, and the most laborious, of all the modern Commentators on the New Testament. For some time he stood in doubt of its authenticity, because it is wanting in many of the ancient copies. But his doubts
were removed by three considerations: (1.) That though it is wanting in many copies, yet it is found in more; and those copies of the greatest authority: — ( 2.) That it is cited by a whole gain of ancient writers, from the time of St. John to that of Constantine. This argument is conclusive: For they could not have cited it, had it not been in the sacred canon: — (3.) That we can easily account for its being, after that time, wanting in many copies, when we remember that Constantine's successor was a zealous Arian, who used every means to promote his bad cause, to spread Arianism throughout the empire; in particular the erasing this text out of as many copies as fell into his hands. And he so far prevailed, that the age in which he lived is commonly styled, Seculum Aranium, — "the Arian age;" there being then only one eminent man who opposed him at the peril of his life. So that it was a proverb, Athanasius contra mundum: ‘Athanasius against the world.’"56
In order for Jesus to be able to have relationship with all Christians, He would have to be infinite: fully God.
In order for the Holy Spirit to indwell all believers, He would have to be infinite: fully God.
God the Father sent Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit: God the Father is God.

[/ARTICLE]

Deuteronomy 6:4 (often loses meaning in different translations)


"4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"
Deuteronomy 6:4 (King James Version)

Hear, O Israel: YHWH our Elohim(plural) is one YHWH :


From adam to mosses mans revelation of God was elohim, the bible in genesis describes the world being created by Elohim. We see Elohim speaking saying "come let us make man OUR own image" mosses asks God what his name was to which we know he responded I AM that I AM = YHWH YHWH=ELOHIM. We know jesus said he and the father were one. If jesus was speaking truth then is it that hard to understand that the Spirit is described as the Spirit of the Father and still described as the Spirit of Christ?

Elohim (אֱלהִים) is a plural formation of eloah

Conclusion
The Father = eloah
The Son = eloah
The Holy Spirit = eloah

eloah + eloah + eloah = Elohim

Elohim says his name is YHWH

Elohim is one and his name is YHWH

The Spirit of The Father and the Spirit of the Son are one and the same Spirit the Holy Spirit. Thats why the apostles refer to him interchangeably as either the Spirit of God the Father or The spirit of Christ. I cant find any reference by which we can infer the spirit of Christ is not the holy spirit and is separate. Cause then we have to account for four distinct persona instead of three.


Stay Blessed




 2010/8/2 5:57Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The 3in1 concept was invented and developed through the devisings of two Roman Catholic theologians named Tertullian and Origen, more than a century after the privitive church went underground (literally), through the persecution of Romanism.



Since when did the Trinity go up for grabs? No wonder we can't keep this thread on the rails. Were not even talking about the same God!


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2010/8/2 9:18Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Robert writes...
Since when did the Trinity go up for grabs? No wonder we can't keep this thread on the rails. Were not even talking about the same God!

I think this is a good point Robert. If folk want to discuss the Trinity in another theme I think that is fine. I shall not take up that issue here. Although anyone who thinks the belief in the Trinity originated with Tertullian and Origen has some history to read.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/8/2 16:01Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Earlier I wrote...

'The Indwelling Christ' was not the experience of the disciples until the Spirit came.

One passage in the letter to the Ephesians is often missed in this matter.

"that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, 17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love," Eph 3:16–17 NKJV

this is Paul's pattern of prayer for the saints and it the only place where it speaks of Christ dwelling in the heart. However if we read the passage carefully we discover that the way that Christ 'dwells in the heart' is as a result of the saints being 'strengthened with might through His Spirit in the ineer man'. It is only be the indwelling Spirit that the indwelling Christ can be manifested in the life of the saint.

This brings us back to my original question... when does Christ begin his indwelling?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/8/2 16:10Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3706
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: ""This brings us back to my original question... when does Christ begin his indwelling?""

At the instant God the Father births the Incorruptable Seed in the Believer, "Born Again". Then we are baptized into the Holy Spirit by Christ, as John stated. The Holy Spirit works in our soul-mind to give the revelation of the birthing of The Christ Seed in the Believer. Now we are the son's of God.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2010/8/2 20:50Profile
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

This thread is like a mustard seed that, when planted, became a giant tree that all the birds of the air nested in...

I keep wanting to read it, but alas the size had become daunting. Is it worth it guys?


_________________
Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/8/2 22:38Profile









 Re:

by RainMan on 2010/8/2 1:57:19

Is the Holy Spirit a distinct personality?
------------------------------------------------------------
YES!

And the article or your thoughts seem to be a bit confusing:

Elohim = God manifested in the earth, sympathy and antipathy working together as one.
El= masculine tense
Eloah=feminine tense
...and the info based on what was written is part-way correct.
For Examples:
what about SheKiNAH?
Who is YaHShuVaH in relation to YHVH?

Also the end statement about four aspects might just be more ded on the money than we think. Man's being, according to the OT is four parts...

Man is made like onto God's image, right?



Still, we are almost exactly in the same thought from your last statement:
________________________(below)_____________________________
The Spirit of The Father and the Spirit of the Son are one and the same Spirit the Holy Spirit. That is why the apostles refer to him interchangeably as either the Spirit of God the Father or The spirit of Christ. I cant find any reference by which we can infer the spirit of Christ is not the holy spirit and is separate. Cause then we have to account for four distinct persona instead of three.
------------------------------------------------------------Jesus said,
"At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."
Jn. 14:20

Jesus is in our Father.
We are in Jesus.
Jesus is in us.

We have a direct connection with the Spirit of our Heavenly Father in Jesus Christ.

____________________________________________________________

Phillip that page put foreward is full of holes, and many others who know the Bible more than all the convoluted traditions of men, would -(if this were the thread to do it,) put it down with the scriptures that prove those things consist more of human opinion than Biblical reality.

...but Phillip, if you want final truth alone, go to Jesus Revelation to John, written several years after Paul was beheaded. BTW, Paul does not stand in opposition to anything the apostles taught.
____________________________________________________________

Those who think we are not talking about the same God as in the Holy Spirit... perhaps not, as you who claim such do not even 'know' His name, in the biblical sense.

I hear the Spirit, that is Jesus voice. He is more real to me than what this body can physically sense. He leads, instructs and guides me. He empowers me in what He wants done: gifts of healing towards one in need, the gift of miracles toward the benefit of another, astounding manifestations of faith, prophecy, a word of knowledge or wisdom, teaching ability that is not of me, and so many other things that in and of my own devisings could never be.

i never ever will teach trinity as the apostles never taught such.

Historically, we see the advent of this concept after the Roman Government has already introduced the worship of Mithras/Apollo and the various mythological gods as saints to be worshipped and prayed to into Romanism.



There is none so blind as he who will not look.
There are correlative historical sources that confirm the information in The Roman Catholic New Theological Dictionary. It spells all this information out so plainly, HRCism being the very source of the conceptualization. This book is not hard to come by, and if you cannot find it anywhere else, go to the library. Look up 'Trinity', then read it and weep in prayer for all so decieved.
____________________________________________________________

Phillip, if you want, we can hash this paper out; but, seeing these are not your own words, do you really beieve all of that stuph, or how much?
____________________________________________________________
Let us get back directly on topic.

This will be the last (sorta' off-topic) discursive from here regarding the Holy Spirit on this thread...and this happened right when some really good stuff has been giving as revealed !



PM if you think there is something wrong with what i believe through the scriptures and according experience; however, before you do, ask yourself if you experience God's hand and voice and thought and feeling and vision and revelation as an everyday occurance?

Anything that points to something that is not relative to Jesus Christ crucified is anathema (Gal. 1:8-9), as it is through identification in Him in this that these things are a regular walk of life: to walk in the Spirit (and not fulfill the lust(s) of the flesh).

Be being filled with the Spirit!

Love, Hope, and Faith,
gregg


How do you fear God?


8 Good and upright is the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.

9 The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way.

10 All the paths of the LORD are mercy and truth unto such as keep his covenant and his testimonies.

11 For thy name’s sake, O LORD, pardon mine iniquity; for it is great.

12 What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.

13 His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.


<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>
14 The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.
<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>-<>


15 Mine eyes are ever toward the LORD; for he shall pluck my feet out of the net.
(Psalm 25:8-15)

edited: grammar



 2010/8/3 0:06





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