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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Robert wrote:


Quote:
God's role in faith is to reveal to us His will.



Yes you are speaking according to Scripture. God must first initiate the act of revealing His will before man can choose to do what God has revealed to him.

When God reveals His will to man, is this done by the power, "dunamis" of His Holy Spirit?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/31 8:06Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

philologos asked:

Quote:
Do you see that those under the Sinai Covenant were required to keep the law AND walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.



Your question combines both the Sinai Covenant and the Abrahamic Covenant and then is applied to the generations that lived from the time of Moses to the time of Christ's ministry. I point this out because this is crucial to the understanding of this whole discussion.

Are you saying that these generations lived under both Covenants?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/31 8:12Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

I don't want to skip this thought and it be lost in this discussion...

philologos wrote:

Quote:
These are important verses. The point that he is making, and it is crucial to this discussion, is that prior to God giving the Levitical priesthood with its burnt offerings and sacrifices he insisted that they 'sign up' to the overall concept of the Sinai Covenant.



I do not believe you understood what the Scripture has testified of this period in Israel's history... I will repost the testimony again concerning Jeremiah and Ezekiel.

........................................................................................................................

philologos wrote:



So as the children of Israel lived in Egypt for 400 plus years, God personally renewed His covenant in each generation. This is true. For before God established the covenant of Mount Sinai, He said this of the fathers of the last generation to live in Egypt.

........................................................................................................................Jer 7:22 "For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.

Jer 7:23 "But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.'
......................................................................................................................

From the above Scripture we see that God first reached out to the fathers of Israel in the same way that He reached out to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. As He spoke to the Patriarchs so He spoke to the fathers of the last generation to live in Egypt.

"Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. Walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you." This God did to initiate faith in the fathers.

We know that God had not yet have to establish the law as we know it that was given on Mount Sinai because of what is said in the other verse which precedes the verse I just wrote about.

......................................................................................................................
Jer 7:22 "For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.
......................................................................................................................

But we then are given this testimony about the fathers rejection of God by this verse.

.......................................................................................................................
Jer 7:24 "Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and the dictates of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.
.......................................................................................................................

So we see then that God's call upon the fathers was rejected. This period of time, is also given to us in Ezekiel chapter 20........

........................................................................................................................
Eze 20:5 "Say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "On the day when I chose Israel and raised My hand in an oath to the descendants of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, I raised My hand in an oath to them, saying, 'I am the LORD your God.'

Eze 20:6 "On that day I raised My hand in an oath to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had searched out for them, 'flowing with milk and honey,' the glory of all lands.

Eze 20:7 "Then I said to them, 'Each of you, throw away the abominations which are before his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.'
......................................................................................................................


Above is a great example of how Scripture is a commentary of itself. We see again the same call of God on the fathers of Israel....

And then we have again this commentary of this time about the father of Israel:

.......................................................................................................................Eze 20:8 "But they rebelled against Me and would not obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which were before their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I said, 'I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.'
......................................................................................................................


And then we have this further commentary of what transpired prior to God establishing the Covenant of Mount Sinai.

......................................................................................................................
Eze 20:9 "But I acted for My name's sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles among whom they were, in whose sight I had made Myself known to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt.

Eze 20:10 "Therefore I made them go out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness.

Eze 20:11 "And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, 'which, if a man does, he shall live by them.' [fn]
........................................................................................................................



From this historic event we are given a clear view of how God reaches out in every generation to reserve for Himself a remnant of people who do listen to Him when He speaks and thus receive His everlasting covenant with joy. And we also see that those who reject His call are left to obey His law according to the flesh.

So why did God in a sense give more detailed instructions to Israel after they rejected His call?


In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/31 8:20Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

rookie on 2010/7/31 10:20:55 writes...
"I do not believe you understood what the Scripture has testified of this period in Israel's history.."

and I am afraid that you have not understood what the scripture is saying of this period... so where do we go from there?


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/31 14:53Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I asked...

Quote:
Do you see that those under the Sinai Covenant were required to keep the law AND walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.



rookie on 2010/7/31 10:12:46 writes...
"Your question combines both the Sinai Covenant and the Abrahamic Covenant and then is applied to the generations that lived from the time of Moses to the time of Christ's ministry. I point this out because this is crucial to the understanding of this whole discussion.

Are you saying that these generations lived under both Covenants?"

I am saying that individuals were required to have a personal faith in God and not just comply with the terms of the Sinai Covenant, but they were required to comply with the terms of the Sinai Covenant.

It is interesting that circumcision is not specifically part of the Sinai Covenant, it is rather part of the Abrahamic Covenant.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/31 14:57Profile









 Re:

Why on this thread is there still such a mish mash of confused misconstroodled ideas
that lack foundation through a proper context base of scripture?

Could it be that what we have come to think is true is just a cut and paste job of God's testimony ?

Could it be that what results is a misunderstanding from not fitting all the puzzle pieces where are made to be placed?

Are certain pieces forced into place because almost all the congruent sides fit ...and irregardless of the color differences they're crammed into place?
Could it be that?
... and what we do not understand we finally just lay aside again and again and again and again and again until it becomes permanently ignored?

Perhaps it is due to the fact that various issues within this discussions lines of thinking have not yet been clearly enough been compared to scripture...

...or possibly many do not want to hear things that go against what they have been told even though what has been taught does not match up with scripture?????



<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
PRENOTE:
Wherever hyphenation is seen, this indicates a transliteration of the Greek Textus Receptus.
____________________________________________________________


"And every breath-from-the-mouth not acknowledging
Jesus (as the Saviour of all humanity)
Christ (and God's annointed Messiah coming to rule the heaven and Earth as King)
arriving bodily cannot be from God:
and this is that spirit in-replacement-of-Christ,
which you have heard how-that would publicly-come-into-being;
and now already is in the world."
I Jn. 4:3

How many generations have passed since John wrote this?

We can safely say more than 40 generations have come and died since this was written.




Now consider what Paul says:
(-> comments within brackets mine <-)




"...all that would actively-live-worthily towards-God in Christ Jesus will be pursued-in-hostility. Also, corrupted-perverting people and deceiving-imposters shall proceedingly-grow onward into-how-they-were-not-created(-to-be), wandering-away-from-truth, and going-(further)-astray-through-delusion.

(-> Think about John's admonition,"and this is that spirit in-replacement-of-Christ,
which you have heard how-this would publicly-come-into-being;
and now already is in the world." in relation to Paul's words above that deception will build upon deception. THIS HAS BEEN OCCURING FOR OVER 40 GENERATIONS.
Paul then instructs Timothy into the way averting deception mentioned. <-)




So-then you remain-fixed in the things which you are informed and , knowing of whom you have learned them; And how-that from infancy you have-percieved-and-discerned the holy scriptures, which are able to make you wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

(-> These 'holy scriptures' Paul mentions above are the Old Testament alone. When Timothy was a child, NONE of the New Testament existed. Relate this to what Paul is actually writing about, when he mentions sciptures as he continues: <-)




ALL SCRIPTURE (The Old Testament) is given by God's (mouth-)breathing-out, and IS PROFITABLE for mastering-teaching leading-into provable-evidence towards straightening-out, for (the-purpose-of) completely-building-up-and-chastening into-a-permanently acceptable-condition-by-God's-standard: That from God, a person becomes fitted-with-an-aptitude developed-completely advantageous-towards every good thing-done.
II Tim. 3:12-17

(-> Since Paul writes that the whole Old Testament from God profits to make us correct in active obedience , this is clear enough evidence that the fulness of the New Covenant has not yet become a physical reality, nor is the Old hardly abolished:
Nature still groans anticipating God's children to be manifested;
The lion does not eat straw nor lay down with the lamb;
the deserts are not blossoming with foilage;
...et al...;
AND, according to the above passage among many others,
--the reason it was considered this thread to be starting off on the wrong foot,--

Jeremiah 31 has not happened yet:
“Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— Jeremiah 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. Jer 31:31–32 NKJV

God was a huband to them, and True Israel , at present, remains a bride in waiting, betrothed but not yet united with our Bridegroom, YaHShuVaH.)






Furthermore, the following passage has been misconstrued and accordingly misunderstood:

A.V. (KJV):

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us:
(-> The Holy Spirit is a witness to us, and this is in reference to being God's 'seal' in and on us (see: Eph. 1:13 & 4:30), as the 'earnest' towards that coming day of redemption (II Cor. 5:5). <-)

for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days,

(<- 'after those days' is in reference to the ending of the current kosmos, because of what the following states: <-)




saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

(<- we have the predialection of our advocate, the Holy Spirit, instructing us to "walk as Jesus is," yet no man can yet honestly claim that God's Law is already in their heart, -(this being the seat of one's affections through the work of perception/volition)- nor is it yet written in human minds. Either that, or Jesus was mistaken when he said His Holy Spirit would "guide you into all truth." Why would the Holy Spirit need to guide us if God's Law were already written in our minds, and is already the seat of our affections? i still have to memorize scripture and meditate on it. Do you know of any of Adam's seed that can quote the Torah because God put it in one of our minds? <-)





17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
[ Heb 10:15-18, (see also: Jer. 31:31-34) ]

(<- God non-remembering our sins and law-breaking could not have yet happened as remission (as a present fact) is mentioned after God's non-remembering and all followers of Jesus will be judged for what goes on in their bodies (aka: our minds and hearts, and think about the sermon on the mount passages relative to this; to be angered with another is murder, etc. -->when has anyone been judged for what is not remembered):
"10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men...(II Cor. 5:10-11). ->)







For now, let's pause about that stuph, and consider more from where we left off with Paul at the end of II Tim. 3:


"For-this-reason I charge you in God's presence, and the Lord Jesus Christ's, who will judge-through-law those alive and dead together-with himself at his blindingly-bright-advent and (coming-)kingdom; Proclaim the word; be prepared-to-stand when called upon and when(-you-are-)not; refute-and-convict, (be-straightforeward-when-you-)rebuff-towards-accountability, encourage-and-instruct with complete perseverance and instruction-of-precepts. For the time will come when they will not put-up-with instruction without-error; but after their-self(ish) desirous-passions they shall accumulate-piles-of instructors, having itching ears; And they will turn away their ears from the truth, and shall turn to devised-speech(es)/narratives/sayings."
II Tim. 4:1-4

(<- 1st. this time coming mentioned is now. 2nd,Considering this last passage transliterated,Note: 4.1 indicates Jesus will judge all people relative to His own observance of the Law when He returns and establishes His kingdom on earth.)






............................................................
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mt 5:17-18
............................................................
It's interesting how Old English words have morphed from their etymological origins.

For example, the word originally being 'wicca', that many think means 'wise', actually began as a word meaning the "twisted-wick" used in candles. From this, such words as 'wicked' ('twisted' -against God's ways) came to exist.

We think that the word 'fulfill' means complete or bring to an end; however, when the KJV was written, it meant to "fill to the brim". So to fill fully was expressed as a full-fill, which eventually came to be written as fulfill.

Considering Mt. 5:17-18 with this knowledge, we can look at the Torah as the cup, and what Jesus did was fill it full of His Spirit through His loving grace.

AMEN



Love, Hope, and Faith,
gregg

...I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
Acts 20:31-32


edited

 2010/7/31 21:50
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

philologos wrote:

Quote:
I am saying that individuals were required to have a personal faith in God and not just comply with the terms of the Sinai Covenant, but they were required to comply with the terms of the Sinai Covenant.



So according to the provisions of the Sinai Covenant, one is condemned because God does not supply His Holy Spirit.

And according to the provisions of the Abrahamic Covenant, one receives the righteousness of God by the power of the Holy Spirit.

We see this precept very clearly, in the following Scripture....
......................................................................................................................
Rom 10:2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God but not according to knowledge.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own righteousness have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
.....................................................................................................................


Paul states that those who reject God's Holy Spirit are ignorant of God's righteousness. By not entering into the Abrahamic Covenant, they were subject to the work of the Sinai Covenant, they became self righteous.


Only by the power of the Holy Spirit did those who lived in the time of Moses through the ministry of Christ know the righteousness that is of God.

Do you agree?

In Christ
Jeff

side note, I will not be able to continue for this next week, we are traveling without the use of the internet.


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/8/1 3:41Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I wrote...

Quote:
I am saying that individuals were required to have a personal faith in God and not just comply with the terms of the Sinai Covenant, but they were required to comply with the terms of the Sinai Covenant.



rookie on 2010/8/1 5:41:06 writes...
So according to the provisions of the Sinai Covenant, one is condemned because God does not supply His Holy Spirit.

And according to the provisions of the Abrahamic Covenant, one receives the righteousness of God by the power of the Holy Spirit.

I can't follow your logic here at all.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/8/1 9:58Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

We broke bread this morning in our meeting. It is a declaration that the New Covenant is 'alive and well'. Christ our Passover has delivered his people and they live in covenant with him.

The original Passover was always a pointer to the New Passover which would come later.

And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. Luke 22

'this passover' was the last of the Old Passovers and the first of the New.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/8/1 10:06Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
So according to the provisions of the Sinai Covenant, one is condemned because God does not supply His Holy Spirit.



The benefits of the New Covenant are not here explained for the purpose of somehow condemning folk that lived by faith under the Old Covenant. They lived in the light they had.

The New Covenant brings about NEW possibilities towards God bringing many sons and daughters unto glory. They are enabled to be partakers of the Divine nature in a way not before known. This does not condemn those that lived under the Old Covenant prior to the revelation of the New.

But I would suggest that having had the New Covenant revealed there is a responsibility to walk in that new light. To seek to continue in the Old when the New has come is to rebel against God. To reject Christ is to forfeit saving faith.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)

God has not applied to the Old Covenant saints the New Covenant standard ex post facto. Yet, there is a pattern revealed in John 3 that is important.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (John 3:19)

Moses was able to bring to Israel a 'fading glory' by virtue of his having been with God. They rejected it.

We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. (II Cor. 3:13)

The condemnation is that men love darkness. They reject God. But as many as received Christ to them gave He the authority to become the sons of God. This is what God wanted. It is offered now. There is only one thing left- 'chose ye.'


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2010/8/1 10:15Profile





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