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 Re:

Rookie writes......

"So I am sorry to have unlovingly coaxed you to testify of your personal relationship with our Lord."

That made me laugh Jeff, you obviously do not know me very well :) You have to coax me to stop talking and testifying! Here are a couple of interesting quotes for the folks to ponder...........

I think that some of us are beginning to see what has been our great mistake. We have thought and spoken glowingly of what Christ did on the cross, and does on the throne, as Covenant surety......And we have stopped there. But we have not expected Him to do great things in ur hearts. And yet it is there, in the heart, that the consummation of the work on the cross and the throne takes place: in the heart the New Covenant has its full triumph. Our Guarantor is to e known not by what the mind can think of HIm accomplishing in heaven but by what He does to make Himself known in the human heart. There is the place where His love triumphs and is enthroned. It is with the the heart that we must believe and receive HIm as the Covenant surety. Let us, with every desire we entertain in connection with the Covenant, with every duty it calls us to, with every promise it holds out, look to Jesus-under God's oath the Guarnator of the Covenant. Let us believe that by the Holy Spirit the heart is His home and HIs throne. Let us in a definite act of faith throw ourselves utterly on HIm for the whole of the New Covenant life and walk. No bondsoman was ever so faithful to his undertaking as Jesus will be on His-on our beahlf, in our hearts.

And yet, despite this strong confidence and the consolation the oath of God and its guarantee of the Covenant gives, there are some (most) still looking wistfully at this blessed life, afraid to trust themselves to His wonderous grace. They have a conception of faith as something great and mighty, and they know and feel that theirs is not such. And so their feebleness remains an insuperable barrier to their inheriting the promise.................

This self-confident spirit in Israel is explained by what had just happened previously. When God had come down on Mount Sinai in thuderings and lightenings to give the law, they were greatly afraid. They said to Moses " Speak to us yourself and we will listen; but let not God speak to us, or we will die." (Ex 20:19) They thought it was simply a matter of hearing and knowing-they could surely obey. They did not realize that it is only in the presence, and the fear, and the nearness, and the power of God humbling us that we can conquer the power of sin and give the power to obey. It is so much easier to recieve the instructions from man and live than to wait and hear the voice of God and die to all our own strenght and goodness. (The Two Covenants, Andrew Murray)

This is really where we are at in America and in the West right now. We have a people that are called by the name of God who have been raised to listen to excellent sermons and somehow think that they can achieve what has been taught. Moses was veiled and his ministry was death and condemnation and yet it had the glory of God upon it. How much greater the glory today? Is God veiled today to His people? Does His people still run from His presence? Can mere instruction lead the people into the New Covenant glory of a victorious life? What can be achieved outside of His presence and His power?

Perhaps brother Andrew is right, perhaps we have a generation of "Christians,' eager to live their lives in compromise rather than to fall down before a living God and die to everything of this world? They believe somehow that they can achieve a righteous life in the flesh outside of the glorious presence and power of God. Yet time will show that this life will produce nothing more than half built towers and the Christian life mocked by onlookers. Compromise must be the order of the day outside of coming into His presence and power.

Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.


 2010/7/29 19:23
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

philologos wrote:

Quote:
Israel became a nation in Egypt, prior to that it was a family. At Sinai Israel the nation became God's nation on the basis of a mutually agreed covenant. The Abrahamic covenant was renewed personally with each generation...



So as the children of Israel lived in Egypt for 400 plus years, God personally renewed His covenant in each generation. This is true. For before God established the covenant of Mount Sinai, He said this of the fathers of the last generation to live in Egypt.

........................................................................................................................Jer 7:22 "For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.

Jer 7:23 "But this is what I commanded them, saying, 'Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.'
......................................................................................................................

From the above Scripture we see that God first reached out to the fathers of Israel in the same way that He reached out to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. As He spoke to the Patriarchs so He spoke to the fathers of the last generation to live in Egypt.

"Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. Walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you." This God did to initiate faith in the fathers.

We know that God had not yet have to establish the law as we know it that was given on Mount Sinai because of what is said in the other verse which precedes the verse I just wrote about.

......................................................................................................................
Jer 7:22 "For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices.
......................................................................................................................

But we then are given this testimony about the fathers rejection of God by this verse.

.......................................................................................................................
Jer 7:24 "Yet they did not obey or incline their ear, but followed the counsels and the dictates of their evil hearts, and went backward and not forward.
.......................................................................................................................

So we see then that God's call upon the fathers was rejected. This period of time, is also given to us in Ezekiel chapter 20........

........................................................................................................................
Eze 20:5 "Say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "On the day when I chose Israel and raised My hand in an oath to the descendants of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, I raised My hand in an oath to them, saying, 'I am the LORD your God.'

Eze 20:6 "On that day I raised My hand in an oath to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had searched out for them, 'flowing with milk and honey,' the glory of all lands.

Eze 20:7 "Then I said to them, 'Each of you, throw away the abominations which are before his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.'
......................................................................................................................


Above is a great example of how Scripture is a commentary of itself. We see again the same call of God on the fathers of Israel....

And then we have again this commentary of this time about the father of Israel:

.......................................................................................................................Eze 20:8 "But they rebelled against Me and would not obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which were before their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I said, 'I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.'
......................................................................................................................


And then we have this further commentary of what transpired prior to God establishing the Covenant of Mount Sinai.

......................................................................................................................
Eze 20:9 "But I acted for My name's sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles among whom they were, in whose sight I had made Myself known to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt.

Eze 20:10 "Therefore I made them go out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness.

Eze 20:11 "And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, 'which, if a man does, he shall live by them.' [fn]
........................................................................................................................



From this historic event we are given a clear view of how God reaches out in every generation to reserve for Himself a remnant of people who do listen to Him when He speaks and thus receive His everlasting covenant with joy. And we also see that those who reject His call are left to obey His law according to the flesh.

So why did God in a sense give more detailed instructions to Israel after they rejected His call?

IN Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/29 20:24Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I ask these questions of you, not to condemn you, but to engage you in a way that we might really get into how the New Covenant is acquired by man. So far in this thread most of the disscussion has centered on the promise of the Holy Spirit and the Law. Very little has developed in the way of diving into how God works to empower us to love Him and one another. And this topic is key to understanding the difference between the Covenant given to Abraham and his descendants and the Covenant given to Israel on Mount Sinai...



Jeff: Please pardon, but if I may jump in on this comment I would like to. This is the beauty of the new covenant. The old was weak through the flesh. Man was attempting to keep a standard of law and a ritual of sacrifice in his own power, by his own hand and effort, and that was the weakness of the law. The new covenant is one of empowerment through regeneration. We are empowered by the Spirit of God. What the law could not do because it was weak through the flesh, God, sending His only Son in the likeness of sinful flesh condemned sin in the flesh and provided just such empowerment. God indeed has written His laws on our hearts, not on stone or parchment. We are empowered and governed internally, not externally. Oh how wonderful the new covenant. Oh how marvelous is the thing that Christ did for me. I have been teaching through Hebrews and last night we covered chapters 7 and 8. Very pertinent to this discussion.


_________________
Travis

 2010/7/29 20:47Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

appolus:

I promised I would get back to Luke 14....

Quote:
Luk 14:28 "For which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it—

Luk 14:29 "lest, after he has laid the foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him,

Luk 14:30 "saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'



This section of Scripture ruled my life for about 2 years...

In my own strength I sold my families 3 story mountain home and bought a double wide trailer. I did this to lessen my financial responsibility. I had a good paying job at the time, and I thought that I was going to be an assistant
pastor who would have a much lower paying job. We moved closer to work and to a bible school at Calvary Chapel South Bay. I would still travel 72 miles to work and then another 20 miles further south to bible school two nights of the week. I was an elder, leader of the children's ministry, and also in training at my local church. And I was also an absent father.

At a men's retreat, the Lord brought circumstances to bear where He gave me these two sections of Scripture....

First,

Isa 35:8 A highway shall be there, and a road, And it shall be called the Highway of Holiness. The unclean shall not pass over it, But it shall be for others. Whoever walks the road, although a fool, Shall not go astray.

Secondly,
ic 4:2 Many nations shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion the law shall go forth, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Then with these Scriptures in mind, for three days He established circumstances for me to minister to others at the retreat and then also for a week back at home.

What I learned is that if I paid attention to the daily events, He would according to His power get me up that mountain. As I said, I had struggled in my flesh to climb a mountain, counting the costs of what it was going to take to climb that mountain. He showed me His faithfulness and my foolishness at the same time. So for me the promise remains,


;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

Whoever walks the road, although a fool, Shall not go astray.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

God Bless
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/29 21:39Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Travis wrote:

Quote:
God indeed has written His laws on our hearts, not on stone or parchment. We are empowered and governed internally, not externally.



Yes, by faith we enter into a place where God demonstrates His love in a way that impacts our lives that we or no other human being can. He gives us a love for His word, which then leads us to love Him for what His word has accomplished in our lives. He becomes more precious than His creation. His increase is without end. It is the Life we never knew until faith came.

God Bless
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/29 22:23Profile









 Re:

Hi Jeff, thanks for the reply on Luke 14. I must admit I was a little puzzled by your reply but I definately appreciate your honesty. In my mind, when I was asking the question about your thoughts on loving the Lord more than our familes and so on, and then of course the anology of the half built towers and compromised living with the enemy, I was trying to see what you thought of the notion that Jesus said that unless we loved Him more than we loved our families, then we could not be His disciples. If we were not a people who were prepared to be fully sold out to Him and take up our crosses every day, then we could not be His Disciples. If He was not the most important thing in our lives then we had not and could not enter into the New Covenant. This obviously is incumbant upon us to choose to enter in, through a total surrender.

If we did not, then we would live the compromised life and through the analogy , Jesus points out that we would be a laughing stock to those of the world, they would not take us seriously, and also we would be compromisers with our enemies and ultimately salt that had no saltiness. Its a line in the sand, so to speak, and it is not an ambiguous Scripture. Do you see where I am coming from. We choose to enter in, He does the rest.

I wrote earlier on that many people , religous people, have come out of the world, so to speak ( although it is a work from the outside) and have never been grafted into Christ. It is akin to the children of Israel. They were taken out of slavery and they accepted it with gladness, and were transferred through the sea by the mighty hand of God. Yet, when troubles and the cares of life in the desert arose, they were not thankful people, obedient people, they grumbled and they fell, almost to a man, in the desert. It is one thing to be taken out of Egypt, it is quite another to cross the river into the promised land, but for those who do, they have ceased from their works and entered into His rest.......brother Frank

 2010/7/29 23:58
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

appolus on 2010/7/29 21:23:56 writes:
"I think that some of us are beginning to see what has been our great mistake. We have thought and spoken glowingly of what Christ did on the cross, and does on the throne, as Covenant surety......And we have stopped there. But we have not expected Him to do great things in ur hearts. And yet it is there, in the heart, that the consummation of the work on the cross and the throne takes place: in the heart the New Covenant has its full triumph."

Amen!!!


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/30 6:14Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

"For I did not speak to your fathers, or command them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices. 23 But this is what I commanded them, saying, “Obey My voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be My people. And walk in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well with you.’" Jer 7:22–23 NKJV

These are important verses. The point that he is making, and it is crucial to this discussion, is that prior to God giving the Levitical priesthood with its burnt offerings and sacrifices he insisted that they 'sign up' to the overall concept of the Sinai Covenant. When you buy a house you don't go into the details about the furnishings or the flowers in the garden until you have established the general principle that the house is for sale and a price agreed. When you have established the concept of willingness to buy and to sell you then move on to the details. This is exactly what happened at Sinai.

The Levitical orderings do not take place until Ex 25 and following but the Sinai Covenant was was sealed in blood in Ex 24:8. When they had said 'yes' to the prospect of being God's people on condition of 'obeying my voice and keeping my covenant' (Ex 19:5) God moved on to the details of the Covenant.

Jeff write:
"So why did God in a sense give more detailed instructions to Israel after they rejected His call?"
Because there is always the possibility of change...

"“O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the LORD. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel! 7 The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it. 11 “Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.” ’ ”" Jer 18:6–11 NKJV

The tragedy of the house of Judah is that having heard this amazing offer of a love which never runs out, they said...

"“Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, “Thus says the LORD: ‘Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.” ’ ” 12 And they said, “That is hopeless! So we will walk according to our own plans, and we will every one obey the dictates of his evil heart.”" Jer 18:11–12 NKJV


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/30 6:30Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

philologos wrote:

Quote:
Because there is always the possibility of change...



As you stated, thereis always the possibility of change. Why would anything change if Israel is left to obey the commandments in their flesh?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/30 10:26Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

rookie on 2010/7/30 12:26:31 writes:
"As you stated, thereis always the possibility of change. Why would anything change if Israel is left to obey the commandments in their flesh?"

I am not sure I understand this question.

"“For this commandment which I command you today is not too mysterious for you, nor is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, “Who will ascend into heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, “Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it. 15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the LORD your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess." Deut 30:11–16 NKJV

This statement spoken by Moses immediately prior the Sinai Covenant people entering the promised land is quoted by Paul in Romans 10. He uses the passage to point out that the attempt to achieve righteousness by means of keeping the law only showed their ignorance and says that Christ is the 'end' or 'goal' of righteousness to every one who believes. Salvation cannot nor ever could be achieved by keeping the law, that was never its purpose. The nation perverted the purpose of the law. It was to be the expression of their love to God and man, it became their ladder to achieve their own 'do it yourself' righteousness. It could never achieve it.

"But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith...." Phil 3:7–9 NKJV

By relying on God they 'could' have kept the law but my relying on their keeping of the law they showed their ignorance of what the righteousness of God' was really all about.

In each era God's grace was available for a man to please him but the New Covenant is radically different in that it changes a man from the inside and puts God's laws there.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/30 11:29Profile





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