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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

"In today's copywrite laws would Paul be accused of plagerism (sp)?"

This again has to do with what I referred to as heilsgeschichte, or salvation history. God has done an amazing thing with the scriptures. He has given us a revelation of His plan of salvation through the Old Testament scriptures AND by interpreting to us the historical events of their lives themselves. This is an awesome undertaking that staggers the mind. I am absolutely certain that as Abraham took Hagar to wife he had no idea that his actions were going to become a figure of the Mosiac covenant that was to come. Not only that, but the prophets desired to look into the things they were saying and could not understand it (often times). This is the nature of Divine inspiration and God's sovereignty. And if I might turn a phrase, if God, knowing all events from the beginning was willing to use the historical lives of certain individuals (carefully selected) then that would (even in our day) constitute 'fair use.'

Noone understood what God was doing in Jesus Christ except God the Father the Holy Spirit and Christ until it was revealed by Him by revelation. Jesus had to set the disciples down and open their understanding as He taught them of Himself in the OT scriptures. They did not gain this understanding by modern hermeneutics- it came by revelation. A cursory look at the NT shows that most people were expecting a King to depose Rome- they had no idea what God was doing. This thread is evidence at just how difficult it can be for folk to grasp what God has done and how diligently one must inquire of the Lord to truly grasp it all. Even then we fall short. The New Covenant is a revelation of mysteries that were kept since the world began. What an awesome thing to be able to look into things that others in times past (in the OT) desired to see and could not see them.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/29 9:23Profile









 Re:

Hi Rookie,

Its not that difficult to understand. God calls upon us to do things that cannot possibly be achieved outside of Jesus. Jesus also, on the sermon on the mount, called for behaviour that cannot be achieved outside of His Spirit. It is incumbant upon man to choose to serve God. When God sees the willing heart He responds to that and then He does all the work of the surrendered heart. You cannot remove mans initiating part, the part to choose. All men can choose,because of Calvary, for God so loved the whole world. The Lord would have that none perish.

Rookie, you ignored my question about Luke 14, why? Can you not just accept that you are a Calvinist and that is what you believe and that many others do not? Its a 500 year old debate and most of the debate is based entirely on ego. I have no desire to enter into a debate with any Calvinist. I love my Calvinist brothers but it never ends, unlike the world which is ending in a reasonably short period of time. Will the Lord find faith on the earth or men wrangling over theology? If men want to stay in Romans 7 and have there declaration be "Oh wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body nof death," then that is there choice they would be exercising their free will. Others have discoverd the glory of God and walk in freedom. God has hard-wired into all men the ability to choose Him because of Calvary. No man will stand before the throne and say to God..... "Its your fault that I did not get saved." ............brother Frank

 2010/7/29 10:06
RainMan
Member



Joined: 2010/4/21
Posts: 227


 Re:Was paul a infringing copywrite?

"In today's copywrite laws would Paul be accused of plagerism (sp)?"

My answer would be no simply because all scripture is "God Breathed" or inspired of the Holy Spirit. Men of old man have held the pen or quell but ultimately the bible has one author. One author inspired to men to write. So technically speaking NO.

Calvinism, materialism, intellectualism all these ism doctrines tend to be misleading as the can be demonically inspired or misleading as they do not look at the scriptures as a whole.























I am sat in my favourite mcdonalds eating a burger. I have been waking up really hungry and every couple of hours i get hungry again(actually could be the exercise dont know). Anyhow i look at my burger and see the lettuce sticking out at this point i determine the 5 points or advantages to eating a burger.

1. Lettuce (Lactuca sativa in the latin) contains Vitamin A
2. Very high in folic acid
3. It contains chicken (i think thats what it is) which is high in protein.
4. Burgers are cheap.
5. Burgers are time savers during a hectic schedule.

Based on these 5 points i have determined that burgers are the holy grail of nutrition. I decide everyone should be a Burgerist.

Anyone who eats fruits is completely unlearned in issues of nutrition. At this point something tells me the whole point of nutrition is to be healthy. Hours pass by and im still arguing with myself.

 2010/7/29 10:56Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

philologos wrote:

Quote:
I am not sure why you are asking this but plagiarism is the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own.



My point was again to draw attention to the fact that Romans 1 and Proverbs 1 give the same message. Proverbs 1 was penned first, and Paul repeated this same precept in Romans 1.
...........................................................
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Rom 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Rom 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,

Rom 1:25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
...........................................................

This above is that below

..........................................................
Pro 1:20 Wisdom calls aloud outside; She raises her voice in the open squares.

Pro 1:21 She cries out in the chief concourses, [fn] At the openings of the gates in the city She speaks her words:

Pro 1:22 "How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge.

Pro 1:23 Turn at my rebuke; Surely I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you.

Pro 1:24 Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded,

Pro 1:25 Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke,

Pro 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your terror comes,

Pro 1:27 When your terror comes like a storm, And your destruction comes like a whirlwind, When distress and anguish come upon you.

Pro 1:28 "Then they will call on me, but I will not answer; They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.

Pro 1:29 Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the LORD,

Pro 1:30 They would have none of my counsel And despised my every rebuke.

Pro 1:31 Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way, And be filled to the full with their own fancies.
...........................................................

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/29 12:36Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Rainman wrote:

Quote:
My answer would be no simply because all scripture is "God Breathed" or inspired of the Holy Spirit. Men of old man have held the pen or quell but ultimately the bible has one author. One author inspired to men to write. So technically speaking NO.



Amen to that. The power of the Holy Spirit is present in all Scripture and all Scripture is for the proving of doctrine.

Any thought on what I shared on Exodus chapter 20? What covenant was Israel under before the covenant that was given them on Mount Sinai?


In Christ
jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/29 12:40Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

appolus wrote:

Quote:
Its not that difficult to understand. God calls upon us to do things that cannot possibly be achieved outside of Jesus. Jesus also, on the sermon on the mount, called for behaviour that cannot be achieved outside of His Spirit. It is incumbant upon man to choose to serve God. When God sees the willing heart He responds to that and then He does all the work of the surrendered heart. You cannot remove mans initiating part, the part to choose. All men can choose,because of Calvary, for God so loved the whole world. The Lord would have that none perish.



Yes I agree with what you have said. Since you understand this, not be cynical, do you recognize aspects of the testimony found in Psalm 119. Have you your self experienced the precepts that this man inspired of the Holy Spirit wrote about his own walk with the Lord?

appolus wrote:

Quote:
Rookie, you ignored my question about Luke 14, why? Can you not just accept that you are a Calvinist and that is what you believe and that many others do not?



First, I am sorry for not answer your thoughts about Luke 14. I will get back to you for I am responding during my lunch here at work.

Secondly, even before the Lord saved me at 40, (I am now 54), back when I was in highschool we were learning about the reformation. And back then, at least 35 years ago, I can attest to the fact that the Lord impressed upon my mind even then that Calvinism is not of God, but a worldly system. When I first began to share on SI back in 2003 I came out in zeal and fire against the Calvinists. I was a rookie then, and I am still a rookie now.

IN Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/29 12:49Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

rookie on 2010/7/29 14:40:35 writes...
"Any thought on what I shared on Exodus chapter 20? What covenant was Israel under before the covenant that was given them on Mount Sinai?"

Israel became a nation in Egypt, prior to that it was a family. At Sinai Israel the nation became God's nation on the basis of a mutually agreed covenant. The Abrahamic covenant was renewed personally with each generation...

And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Gen 17:7

This covenant is then renewed with...

Isaac:
2And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of: 3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. Gen 26:2-5

and then again with Jacob:
13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; 14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed. 15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of. Gen 28:13-15

hence God is the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob. It was on the basis of his promise to these three men that God delivered their descendants from Egypt.

And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob. Ex 2:24

And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. Ex 3:15

In order to fulfil his promise of the land to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob God had to deliver children of Israel from Egypt.

2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them. 4 And I have also established my covenant with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers. 5 And I have also heard the groaning of the children of Israel, whom the Egyptians keep in bondage; and I have remembered my covenant. Ex 6:2-5

He entered into a covenant with the nation of Israel to honour the promise and covenant that he had made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. As we can see from this last reference the distinctive name with which he 'signed' the Sinai Covenant was Jehovah, and this nation of Israel became the authentic 'Jehovah's Witnesses'.

So Israel, as a nation, was not under covenant in Egypt,but God was watching over his word to fulfil his promise to Ab/Isaac/Jacob. Only if this nation submitted to the Sinai Covenant would they become 'God's nation'.

3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; 4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. Ex 19

"IF you will obey my voice indeed and keep my covenant, THEN... you shall be unto me... a holy nation.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/29 13:25Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3706
Ca.

 Re:

Jeremiah 13:11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

So it is with Israel, on and off, on and off, but always, "they would not".

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Still today we have, "all have fallen short" and will not. That is why Christ had to come. That we by God's own Grace, He would provide us a way, that we "will".

This is for Israel; Hebrews 10:16-18 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

No Temple, No offering. King David's throne, will accomplish this with King Jesus occupying the new temple.
Christ is the last offering for Israel and the Body of Christ.

This is for the Body of Christ; Hebrews 10:19-22 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

"Christ in you the Hope of Glory." Praise God for the New and living way. He did it, I believe it, I have received Him, I am His, by the Price He Paid, I am bought and paid for and now I am a son of God, by His Glory, which is our only hope of Glory.

Colossians 1:27-29 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

"His Working"

Praise God, His Working is making me perfect, as I strive according to His working, which workfare in me mightily.

Matthew 6:9-13 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

It is done now in the body of Christ on this earth and will be done on this earth for Israel for 1000 years.

In Him, Him in me: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2010/7/29 14:06Profile









 Re:

Rookie writes........

"Yes I agree with what you have said. Since you understand this, not be cynical, do you recognize aspects of the testimony found in Psalm 119. Have you your self experienced the precepts that this man inspired of the Holy Spirit wrote about his own walk with the Lord?"

Yes I have brother, not sure why your question would be adjudged to be cynical, but given that you did say that, can I assume that you have not had a similar experience?...........brother Frank

 2010/7/29 16:02
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Quote:
Yes I have brother, not sure why your question would be adjudged to be cynical, but given that you did say that, can I assume that you have not had a similar experience?...........brother Frank



When I read Psalm 119, I find many places where God has worked in similar ways with me as those testified of by the writer of the Psalm.

I ask these questions of you, not to condemn you, but to engage you in a way that we might really get into how the New Covenant is acquired by man. So far in this thread most of the disscussion has centered on the promise of the Holy Spirit and the Law. Very little has developed in the way of diving into how God works to empower us to love Him and one another. And this topic is key to understanding the difference between the Covenant given to Abraham and his descendants and the Covenant given to Israel on Mount Sinai...

In the Covenant given to Abraham, faith in God enables men to please God because God extends the grace necessary for man to satisfy God requirement of man. That is, to love God with all ones being and then to love your neighbor. In the Covenant given to Israel on Mount Sinai, God condemns Israel if they seek to keep the law by fleshly means, by their own strength.

Paul goes into great detail describing the difference between these two covenants. Most of the time we focus on Pentecost and that the Holy Spirit will be in us. But few can express what that means in these days, yet the writer of Psalm 119 gives us a detailed description of what God has done for him. The result of realizing the extent of how God worked in him, creates in him a heart of worship, a heart of reverence, a heart of gratitude. His heart cries out Abba Father.

So I am sorry to have unlovingly coaxed you to testify of your personal relationship with our Lord.

God Bless
Jeff



_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/29 18:29Profile





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