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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Now my feelings towards fellow Jews is akin to Paul's in Romans 9, just tortured, but i can testify to this, thanks to the religionists of days past, who's hands are soaked with jewish blood, if you say the Beautiful Name, "Jesus" to a Jew...today, a reflexive shudder goes thru them. Not out of Holy Ghost conviction, but because of the long dark history generation passes on about generation what these "christians" do to us.



I am very familiar with these issues and have written about them. There are a lot of peoples blood on 'the hands'. The Martyrs Mirror is case-in-point. But we are concerning ourselves with what the scriptures teach and cannot allow our theology to be influenced by any of these horrendous events.

It is the view of Messianic's that I have studied with that salvation is in Christ alone. This is why they seek to preach the Gospel to them. I would further suggest that the best chance of seeing Jews come to Christ is for them to be exposed to a genuine expression of the New Covenant in the Body of Christ. When the New Covenant is truly expressed folk are brought to a face-to-face with God no matter if they are Jew or Gentile, etc.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/3 16:11Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
They could not be 'in' Christ while He walked the earth, therefor they could not be 'New' creatures. The New Covenant was of no strength at all while the Testator lived.



Robert
I really think this is a key to so much. If we think about it it becomes very clear that the disciples were not 'in Christ' while he was physically on the earth. He was, to use his own analogy of the Spirit, with them but not in them. The indwelling Christ is the 'hope of glory' but there could be no in-dwelling Christ while he was an alongside-dwelling Christ'. It is this inwardness of the New Covenant that I find so exciting.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/3 16:17Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:


Ron's: It is this inwardness of the New Covenant that I find so exciting.


I think Steven found it exciting also. He seemed to be able to put his finger right on the spot as he preached. The non-believers throughout biblical history did always 'resist the Holy Spirit.' Some were even fine with a covenant that gave them a religion that could be exercised independent of God. But God's design since the beginning has been a restoration of the relationship that went beyond what Adam actually experienced. Adam's pre-fall experience would have been similar to that of the Disciples (if they had been innocent as Adam was) or Moses on the Mount (if he could have been innocent as was Adam). As wonderful as these theophanies are, the New Covenant offers men to become habitations of God through the Spirit. In the language of Isaiah 66:1, 2

hus saith the LORD, The heaven [is] my throne, and the earth [is] my footstool: where [is] the house that ye build unto me? and where [is] the place of my rest?

For all those [things] hath mine hand made, and all those [things] have been, saith the LORD: but to this [man] will I look, [even] to [him that is] poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.


Stephen quoted part of this passage in Acts 7:49, 50. The implication is clear. Non-believers do not truly want to be that place of God's rest. They don't want God near. I heard a definition of religion I think is fitting: it is worship in the absence of God. The New Covenant provides something not even Adam knew; an opportunity to be the very dwelling place of God. It provides for us that God would work in us both to will and to do His good pleasure.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/3 18:58Profile









 Re:

by philologos on 2010/7/3 12:17:39

Quote:
They could not be 'in' Christ while He walked the earth, therefor they could not be 'New' creatures. The New Covenant was of no strength at all while the Testator lived.



Robert
I really think this is a key to so much. If we think about it it becomes very clear that the disciples were not 'in Christ' while he was physically on the earth. He was, to use his own analogy of the Spirit, with them but not in them. The indwelling Christ is the 'hope of glory' but there could be no in-dwelling Christ while he was an alongside-dwelling Christ'. It is this inwardness of the New Covenant that I find so exciting.

____________________________________________________________

Ron and Robert,
There is failure here to account for the fact that Jesus was the Lamb slain BEFORE the foundation of the world.

As well, do you think that Jesus breathing on the disciples telling them to recieve the Holy Spirit was just a useless exercise without effect?

Several of the prophets were filled with the Holy Spirit, probably all of them, and Jesus refers to them as bretheren in Revelation and implies such at the onset of the sermon on the mount.
____________________________________________________________
(g: cont.)

I Cor. 3:
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.




12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is.

14 If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
------------------------------------------------------------



This word for "New" that you seem to be making everything hinge on needs to be looked at in context of where it is written. "New" creature has a different meaning than "New" covenant. Respectively, one is in reference primarily to "something different" (never used before), and the other means "fresh" (not yet used, yet most likely pre-existent: like plan A and plan B, A did not work out, so it's time for plan B)-thus my use of the word "renewed" as this word "fresh' implies. The one that is used for "Fresh" Covenant, in context with the passages where it is written, is in reference to the old way of worship compared to the New and Livng Way: Jesus being God's best.

If either of these words implied "something never existing before" there are other words for that. For example, if it meant "begotten" or "newborn" that is what would have been stated.

If the "Fresh" Covenant had totally abolished the Old, we could murder, lie, break Shabbat, etc. without guilt, condemnation, remorse, or consequences. It's an extreme example, yet it serves to prove what has been made of no effect and what is still active. Yes, we who are regenerate do not desire to bring shame to God's name, these things being written on our hearts.

(The danger in taking these single passages in Isaiah, Ezekiel, and Jeremiah alone and not accounting for other possibile error and solutions plainly stated in the scriptures...

-(the sin nature, sin commited, the pathway of reprobation:seared conscience, confusion and resulting manifestations of sin, etc.)-

...is to create erronious doctrine, upon which is built doctrines of demons (man-made(?) theologies).

If we ever think "this is the way it is", yet not have an Eden paradise lifestlye, completely free from all effects of the curse is to lie against the truth.

It's really wondered how one can promote ideations from scripture, yet moving through life in the living not be moving in constant conversation<--(in the fullest sense)- with God.



This Everlasting Covenant (Fresh Covenant) has been in effect since before the foundation of the world. Everything that has occured from Gen. 1:1 up to what has yet to happen is the revealing of this Everlasting Covenant established before the foundation of the world. As time passes, more and more of it is made manifestation.

Even though this is the case, we cannot ignore that where grace does much more abound, sin abounds.

There were a faithful few who walked in what they were revealed of this "New and Living" way even before the fulness of time. Enoch, Abraham, Noah, Job, Moses, David are a few of the clearest examples that are personally recognized, as there are comments about them that back up this thought.

This accounts for why dispensationalism does not agree with all scripture. This is why replacement "theology(?)" and the "kingdom" now genre of thought, along with most all others, do not agree with the full counsel of God as well. There are exceptions to all these rationalized ideas.

Every covenant God has made with man on earth has it's source in the Everlasting Covenant. This (HE) is the vine, and all others are branches of Jesus work established before the foundations of the world were laid.

What has been negated by Jesus Sacrafice is the old system of worship.

What is coming into fulness through this New Covenant, is that now that we have His spirit within, as well as present with us from without, we are enabled to have an intimate realtionship with Yaweh.

Mt. 5:17, 18

Jesus is the King of Kings, and our Father is a Lawgiver: Gal. 6:7-8



Ron,

I'm looking for feedback. it's thought that this is not expressed clearly enough, yet. I'm still praying for a way to clarify all this in relation to daily living for the believer, in accord with what ALL scripture makes manifest. Living in it is one thing, detailed explanation is another.

What do you think of what already has been posted from here (p.1 and p2)? You have been questioning one word, and either ignoring the rest or are still thinking about it.

i don't have a complete picture, yet write what God has given me to use for benefit. (None of this came by any book learning, but through communion in Jesus, in obedience to what is prompted through His spirit's unction.)

Salt in Agapeo,
gregg
Acts 20:32


p.s. Shame on anyone who takes what they want to use to make their rationalizations palatable and ignore the rest of what is written, Mk. 9:49. When judgement falls, will these things and the results created stand the fire? How severe will it be for those who have decieved many and know better? What about those so heardhearted they will not listen nor observe, yet go on their (currently) merry way teaching others such, only being living stumbling blocks?

Pray that we all return to unity in Thee Faith.




 2010/7/3 19:00
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
As well, do you think that jesus breathing on the disciples telling them to recieve the Holy Spirit was just a useless exercise without effect?



It surely had a purpose, but it cannot be confused with the Pentecost event in which individuals could be baptized into Jesus Christ.

Quote:
There is failure here to account for the fact that Jesus was the Lamb slain BEFORE the foundation of the world.



This fact allowed individuals to be justified by faith since the beginning. Yet we see historically that God has dealt with man typically through covenants and in 'real time'. There is emphasis made by the writer to the Hebrews on an important point:

For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. (Hebrews 4:3)

Although the works were finished from the foundation of the world they are being worked out in the 'here and now' in a linear fashion. Although God always knows what He will do, He carries on in time as if He is oblivious to the future. So although He knew Christ would die as sure as if it had happened, the reality of that event was did not play out until Calvary. After Calvary we have an interesting 'change' in the way God reckons mans actions:

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: (Acts 17:30)

Notice the two words, 'BUT NOW...' Why now? Because the position of the timeline was such that the Testator (in the New Covenant's case our Lord Jesus Christ) had actually died and Jesus Christ the True Melchizidek had assumed His place in Heaven as our King/Great High Priest of the New Covenant that was established in His own blood upon BETTER promises. This New Covenant promise is now available to anyone since Jesus Christ actually died in real time. As it is written... now that which decays and waxes old is ready to vanish away. This is linear language. Otherwise Noah could have been Baptized into Jesus Christ by the Spirit and could have preached to the people a better covenant.

Yet God has chosen to reveal His purposes over time in what we would call Salvation History (Heilsgeschichte the German's call it). The Bible is a Revelation that builds line upon line towards the Revelation of Jesus Christ and the New Covenant. God chose to do it this way. It is unfathomable wisdom and majesty revealed in Historical events giving light to God's Eternal Covenant.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/3 19:24Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Several of the prophets were filled with the Holy Spirit, probably all of them, and Jesus refers to them as bretheren in Revelation and implies such at the onset of the sermon on the mount.



John the Baptist was the greatest OldTestament Prophet, yet notice the personal pronouns in this passage:

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire: (Matthew 3:11)

Note, he shall baptize YOU. Notice he did not include himself in that passage. Under inspiration of the Holy Spirit he apparently knew he would not live to see the prophesy he was making fulfilled. It was NOT his present experience, this Baptism with the Holy Ghost and Fire. He was filled with the Spirit as were many before him, but the Baptism he spoke of was the ONE Baptism that Paul spoke of in Ephesians.

John Baptist was martyred before he could undergo The Baptism he preached about. Jesus said that there was none greater born of women than John the Baptist; that is to say none that had only been born of the flesh (John 3). But the least in the Kingdom of God was going to be greater than John. Why? Because they would experience the One great Baptism Paul preaches in Ephesians 4. All other baptisms and the revelation they provide us with throughout the Old Testament point to this 'One Baptism' that John Baptist and Paul spoke of.

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

A good exegete knows that they cannot pluralize one aspect of this seven fold revelation and leave the other 6 singular. To do so would be to στρεβλοῦσιν (wrest) the passage. As surely as there is one God there is only really One Baptism. All others are merely types and shadows; instruments of God's revelation. This One Baptism is what takes a person 'OUT' of Adam and places them 'IN' Jesus Christ. (I Cor. 15:22)


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Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/3 19:34Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
If the "Fresh" Covenant had totally abolished the Old, we could murder, lie, break Shabbat, etc. without guilt, condemnation, remorse, or consequences. It's an extreme example, yet it serves to prove what has been made of no effect and what is still active. Yes, we who are regenerate do not desire to bring shame to God's name, these things being written on our hearts.



I am not suggesting antinomianism (lawlessness). What I would say is that the First Covenant has vanished away; why? because what the Law could not do in that it was weak because of the flesh God had made provision for. There are 613 laws in the Old Covenant (365 neg and 248 pos) and many of them deal specifically with Israel in the land and the Temple rituals. Keep in mind, a covenant sets forth terms of a relationship. The reason they needed a sacrificial system was because the terms of the covenant would be broken and if the people were expected to follow the prescription for restoring the relationship again through propitiation, etc., then God could remain among them and they could remain in the land of Israel. Otherwise He would have to either depart or bring swift judgment.

God does not need the Old Covenant to remain in order to serve as a standard of conduct for the Born Again. In fact, to utilize the Old Covenant in attempting to be spiritual is to fall into the Galatian error.

This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? (Galatians 3:3, 4)


The essence of the New Covenant that makes it totally incompatible with the old is that the genuine Born Again have BEGUN in the Spirit. That is always the question. Not has a person repeated a prayer, etc. The real question I think we have to employ is Paul's, "Having begin in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh?"

What makes flesh- 'Flesh' is that men and women are responding and doing other than what God is saying. A child of the flesh is as Ishmael- they are living in the same line of reasoning that brought forth Ishmael. Sarah knew what God had said- but when God tarried she would not wait and as a result suggested an alternate option to believing what God has said. She did what was right in her own eyes with no regard for the Word that is proceeding from the mouth of God. The Old Covenant allows people to move in a host of codified rules as if they are God's people while at the same time 'always resisting the Holy Ghost' (Acts 7). The New Covenant establishes a people that will live by every word that IS proceeding from the mouth of God. The Old Covenant simply cannot take a person to the level of God-pleasing and obedience that makes Him KING OF KINGS in the heart. One has to have begun in the Spirit so they can hear and obey the Spirit. Anything else, no matter how enticing, is Galatianism in some form or another.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/3 19:52Profile









 Re:

by RobertW on 2010/7/3 15:34:14

Quote:
Several of the prophets were filled with the Holy Spirit, probably all of them, and Jesus refers to them as bretheren in Revelation and implies such at the onset of the sermon on the mount.



John the Baptist was the greatest OldTestament Prophet, yet notice the personal pronouns in this passage:

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire: (Matthew 3:11)
------------------------------------------------------------
John the Baptist was never mentioned to recieve the Holy Spirit within, though for example, Ezekiel did...

[Rev. 19:10]

... and individual greatness is not measured God's Spirit, though greater works are. Man is measured by what he does, not what God does in or through him. God can use a donkey if He so chooses.
____________________________________________________________



Robert (cont.)

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)

A good exegete knows that they cannot pluralize one aspect of this seven fold revelation and leave the other 6 singular. To do so would be to στρεβλοῦσιν (wrest) the passage. As surely as there is one God there is only really One Baptism. All others are merely types and shadows; instruments of God's revelation. This One Baptism is what takes a person 'OUT' of Adam and places them 'IN' Jesus Christ. (I Cor. 15:22)


I never claimed to be an exegete nor have any clue about what you call the 7 fold revelation. i just call it like it is seen and learn from there.

As far as shadows and types go, without the substance and anti-type already existing, there is no shadow nor type.


The only this that can be recognized from this post is that the shadow of immersion through water, such as Noah's and the Moshe with the children of Israel, or even John the dunker, is that though the physical manifestation was not yet manifested, yet even these types and shadows have no validity without the form and substance already existing.

How does one make a replica of something that does not yet exist?

There is the One, and then there is everything else sympathetic with, never vice versa.

II Cor. 4:16, 17, 18


Agapeo,
g
Acts 20:32

 2010/7/3 20:02
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Shame on anyone who takes what they want to use to make their rationalizations palatable and ignore the rest of what is written, Mk. 9:49. When judgement falls, will these things and the results created stand the fire? How severe will it be for those who have decieved many and know better?



Paul certainly agrees with this. He wrote the letter to Galatia with his own hands in big letters. It was an urgent message. there were some among them that sought to mix the Old Covenant with the New and were in grave danger. You will scarcely find stronger language than this in the whole Bible:

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8, 9)

There is always this fear that unless folk are somehow brought under Law they will backslide or fall into sin. This is understandable. But Paul would not back up from the truth of the Gospel. He was constrained to not want hybrid Old/New Covenant Christians. He preached a message that brought a person into a place in life where they by nature fulfilled the Law. The Law cannot make a person perfect, to begin and continue in the Spirit can.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/3 20:05Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
John the Baptist was never mentioned to recieve the Holy Spirit within, though for example, Ezekiel did...



For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. (Luke 1:15)


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Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/3 20:09Profile





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