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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
We are called to Love God and our neighbor according to the words Christ pointed to in the OT. Have these two commandments passed away?


You see we have another "predicament"



Men are also told to love their wives as their own bodies. I'm sure the wife would desire to be loved on the basis of the man's own desire and 'not' out of a commandment. The thing that the New Testament brings to the table is God working in us both to will and to do His good pleasure. We don't love God merely because we are commanded to- we love God because we want to. Likewise we don't return to sin because God commanded us NOT to- we don't return to sin because we don't want to. That's the difference. We have what the old timers used to call, "the expulsive power of a new affection."


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Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/28 12:15Profile
RainMan
Member



Joined: 2010/4/21
Posts: 227


 Re: philologos

"I believe it is essential that we interpret the Old Testament in the light of the New Testament. The NT and the writings of Paul and others in that canon provide the definitive exposition of the Old Testament."

I most certainly agree old chap on the issue of old testament exposition being done in the new. I think allot of confusion results when words like covenant and testament are interchanged. I see events up until Malachi as pre new testament and events up until the death and resurrection as pre new covenant. Often if this subtle difference is not understood then the result can be misunderstanding. Thought testament and covenant are the same thing i look at the cross as the start of the new covenant.

Starting in the new testament and going back to the old will certainly open our eyes to the numerous types and shadows through time that point to Christ and this is remarkable. In fact like most of people i in fact do love the old testament and often read it in the illuminating light of the New testament. Like a wise guy said all revelation should point to Christ. All Rhema we have should point to and glorify Christ and not ourselves. like the old hymn says "in your church lord be glorified" The very Spirit of God within us glorifies Christ and nothing else.


I think we are agreed on many things in closing "The NT and the writings of Paul and others in that canon provide the definitive exposition of the Old Testament." this somes up my sentiments exactly. I dont think anyone is saying burn the law and the prophets. A litmus test i use is to do an exposition on something like faith from the old testament and compare it to and Hebrews 11 and other new testament exposition this has helped me to rid myself of myself in exposition. But thank God he didnt leave us comfortless and has blessed us with a counselor that knows his way around scripture.

This is an interesting subject area for me anyway and i apologist if any of my postings have been construed as contentious in any way.

 2010/7/28 12:25Profile









 Re:

Robert writes.......

"Men are also told to love their wives as their own bodies. I'm sure the wife would desire to be loved on the basis of the man's own desire and 'not' out of a commandment. The thing that the New Testament brings to the table is God working in us both to will and to do His good pleasure. We don't love God merely because we are commanded to- we love God because we want to. Likewise we don't return to sin because God commanded us NOT to- we don't return to sin because we don't want to. That's the difference. We have what the old timers used to call, "the expulsive power of a new affection."



This is really the essence of the NC. I have followed this thread with interest. I think the simple truth of the New Covenant can get lost in the " weeds,' of much explaining. Yet what Robert has written above captures the true essence of what God has done.

The reason I have followed it with such interest is because I believe that this very subject is the major stumbling block to revival in America. Onlhy wen men realize that they cannot fulfill the commandmentsm will they come to Jesus who can. Yet, when you come to Him He will require your whole heart, holding nothing back. Come to the end of yourself, as in Romans 7 and you are ready to enter into the fullness of God.........brother Frank

 2010/7/28 13:11
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

appolus on 2010/7/28 15:11:17 wrote...
"The reason I have followed it with such interest is because I believe that this very subject is the major stumbling block to revival in America. "

I have long held the view that what we have called revival is simply a return to the pristine power and life of the New Covenant.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/28 13:49Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Robert wrote:

Quote:
The thing that the New Testament brings to the table is God working in us both to will and to do His good pleasure. We don't love God merely because we are commanded to- we love God because we want to.



You are correct, man cannot love God according to the law. Also we cannot love our wives or our neighbor if all that we have is the letter of the law. It is impossible for man according to Scripture to satisfy the law of God.

With that said, do you believe the following Scripture defines God's requirements of man?
...........................................................
Mar 12:29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Mar 12:30 'And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment. [fn]

Mar 12:31 "And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."
.........................................................

Do you believe that Jesus enables us to satisfy this law?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/28 14:48Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

philologos wrote:

Quote:
"I believe it is essential that we interpret the Old Testament in the light of the New Testament. The NT and the writings of Paul and others in that canon provide the definitive exposition of the Old Testament."



Paul is our prime example of how to properly interpret the OT in the light of the new. Here is a perfect example.

Paul writes in Roman 1:
.........................................................
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Rom 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,

Rom 1:25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
..........................................................

This is that below

...........................................................
Pro 1:20 Wisdom calls aloud outside; She raises her voice in the open squares.

Pro 1:21 She cries out in the chief concourses, [fn] At the openings of the gates in the city She speaks her words:

Pro 1:22 "How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge.

Pro 1:23 Turn at my rebuke; Surely I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you.

Pro 1:24 Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded,

Pro 1:25 Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke,

Pro 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your terror comes,

Pro 1:27 When your terror comes like a storm, And your destruction comes like a whirlwind, When distress and anguish come upon you.

Pro 1:28 "Then they will call on me, but I will not answer; They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.

Pro 1:29 Because they hated knowledge And did not choose the fear of the LORD,

Pro 1:30 They would have none of my counsel And despised my every rebuke.

Pro 1:31 Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way, And be filled to the full with their own fancies.
...........................................................

Is this an example of Paul's use of the OT in the explaination of the New?

In Christ
jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/28 14:58Profile









 Re:

Brother Ron writes.....

"I have long held the view that what we have called revival is simply a return to the pristine power and life of the New Covenant."

Amen brother, I could not agree more. When the ministers of condemnation become the ministers of righteousness and glory then we will see those who dwell in their cells turn and realize that the door has been opened, the way has been made, freedom is just a few steps away. To walk from the dimness of their prison cells to the glorious light of the New Covenant will ruin them for life. All it takes to walk those few steps and push on through the door? Complete surrender, God wants our whole hearts. Once He has our whole hearts we can do all things through Christ. Ah but there's the rub. Are we willing to love God more than husband or wife, son or daughter, mother or father? Are we willing to love God more than our bank books? More than our churches, our countries, our reputations? When the Lord gets a hold of a few people who are willing to surrender all, He can use these little loaves and fishes and He can feed the multitude and turn the hearts of the people towards Him.

And all of this I would say, not to the "lost,' but to the majority who fill the pews of western churches every Sunday.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

So we see that there are ministers of death and of condemnation. Then there are ministers who can say this...... For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Cor 4:5,6)

So the question would be to all ministers......Has the almighty God shone a light in your heart? Have you basked in the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus? Has it ruined you for life? Can you say with the prophet....

"I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
Isa 6:2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
Isa 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
Isa 6:4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
Isa

Directly after this encounter, the prophet repents of his state. The people who call themselves after the name of God need an encounter with the living God that will shine a light into the deepest parts of their soul and it will ruin them forever. God will be found by those who seek Him with their whole hearts..........brother Frank

 2010/7/28 15:10
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

"I have long held the view that what we have called revival is simply a return to the pristine power and life of the New Covenant."

I say Amen to that as well.

Paul called the Law a "ministration of death" (2 Cor. 3.7). A very strong statement.

Yet the New Covenant, if it is not more than the letter, is no different! "The letter killeth," he said.

We are, supposedly, in the days of the dispensation of the New Covenant. But how much that goes over the pulpit these days is nothing more than the letter of the New Covenant... and therefore, really no different from the Old?

...And in fact, if it is just "the letter" that goes forth, even if it's from the pages of our New Testament... it is NOT the New Covenant.

The difference, Paul says, is "the Spirit."

"...Who also hath made us able ministers of the New Covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life."


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Allan Halton

 2010/7/28 15:36Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Do you believe that Jesus enables us to satisfy this law?



I believe that if a person is in Christ and walking in the Spirit they will by nature fulfill the law. Being in Christ and Christ in me makes this possible. Being in Christ makes me dead to Sin. But key to this I think is found here:

And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. (Romans 5:5)

The love of God is poured out in the hearts of the regenerate. This is something the Law could not do. It could command me to love, but it did not deal with old Adam that was working in me to hate. Jesus Christ dealt with old Adam and if I am in Him I share in what He has done. This enables one to Love as God desires us to love. This is the love that Stephen demonstrated. He loved to the very end.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/28 15:49Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

rookie on 2010/7/28 16:58:19 wrote...

Is this an example of Paul's use of the OT in the explaination of the New?

No, it isn't. This is an example of you using an OT passage to illustrate a NT truth. Paul makes no mention of this passage in Rom 1.

This is an example...
1 “Sing, O barren,
You who have not borne!
Break forth into singing, and cry aloud,
You who have not labored with child!
For more are the children of the desolate
Than the children of the married woman,” says the LORD. Is 54

26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written:

“ Rejoice, O barren,
You who do not bear!
Break forth and shout,
You who are not in labor!
For the desolate has many more children
Than she who has a husband.”[e] Gal 4

In this passage Paul takes a passage which we would have interpreted to mean one thing, earthly Jerusalem rebuilt, and expounds it to bring a definitive interpretation of what the passage was pointing to. It had pointed to the New Jerusalem not a refurbished Old Jerusalem.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/28 16:08Profile





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