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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

{quote]Jeff's: Why do many fail to consider how God imputes faith into a man?




I don't view faith in that way. Faith is my response to God when He reveals His will.

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17)

I'm not just talking about scripture verses. I'm referring to God specifically speaking forth His word to my heart in real time. Jesus said it like so:

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word (ῥήματι ) that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Matthew 4:4)

Man is to live by every word that 'is proceeding' from the mouth of God. How? Don't we need God to generate faith in us? Are we not utterly dead to respond to God?

For with God nothing shall be impossible. (Luke 1:37)

Notice what this verse really says:

For with God no 'word' shall be impossible. The word 'nothing' in the KJV is the same root as ῥήματι in Matthew 4:4 (root rhema) and means 'word'. When God speaks the word itself carries with it the ability to accomplish what God is saying. In other words the word spoken by God contains the grace to do what God is saying. When God speaks things become possible that were not possible before.

The difference between faith and flesh or faith and sin has to do with these facts. Faith is right response to God's spoken word (His quickened word). When God speaks- 'faith cometh.' Galatians described children of the flesh by using the example of Ishmael. Ishmael was the consequence of response to a different revelation than what God had said. God had indeed spoken, but Sarah spoke also.

And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai. (Genesis 16:2)

God revealed His will and Sarah offered an 'alternate' option. The result? It was an act of the FLESH. It was NOT an act of faith. Isaac was Abraham responding to the promise of God. Ishmael was Abraham responding to the voice of Sarah.

And this is what characterizes the New Covenant believer- they HEAR what 'GOD' is saying in real time and are led by the Spirit of God in a life of faith. They hearken to GOd not some alternate 'word' or 'suggestion' or 'idea'.

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8:25ff)

It is impossible to improve on God's revelation of His will. This is critical to understand. We are helpless to please God except to do what He has said. Without God speaking there can be no faith and without faith it is impossible to please God. To move in our own will and seek to please God from our own will and mind when God has not spoken is presumption. This is NOT what Jesus revealed as our example. The level of direction in the life of Jesus Christ was amazing. In fact He stated-

Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him. (John 8:28ff)

Christ is our example. His life was characterized by being led of the Spirit. He was not moving in His own will- He was moving in the will of the Father at all times. The devil tried to tempt Him to divert from this path and Jesus would not so much as convert stones to bread without having clear direction from the Father. Obedience is better esteemed with God than acquired knowledge, it is the most important lesson -fundamental to the gaining of all spiritual knowledge from God. (GW North)

If we truly BELIEVE God and respond RIGHTLY to what He has said - it is 'faith'. This is what the people of Nineveh found. They did not need commentary. They believed and reacted. This is faith. The GROUND of our faith is God's conviction 'that we mean it' when we respond. God is watching and He has to be able to believe us. We can't fake God out.

The key to God's will being done in earth and it is in heaven is that we HEAR and respond rightly and convincingly. When the angels hear God's will they don't hesitate or rationalize it- they react. They do it! They don't believe and tremble as do the devils- they believe and OBEY because to them there is no other option. They don't 'halt between two opinions.' They are moving on the words of their King.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/28 5:22Profile
RainMan
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Joined: 2010/4/21
Posts: 227


 Re: Article on OLD vs New

“Christ is our example. His life was characterized by being led of the Spirit. He was not moving in His own will- He was moving in the will of the Father at all times. The devil tried to tempt Him to divert from this path and Jesus would not so much as convert stones to bread without having clear direction from the Father. Obedience is better esteemed with God than acquired knowledge, it is the most important lesson -fundamental to the gaining of all spiritual knowledge from God.” –Robert

That is kinda where ive been trying to allude to with so many word lol.

For those would rather read the scripture references first and take to time to pray over these scriptures with the view to the spirit increasing the revealation of what remarkable work Christ has done for us i have pasted a couple of references below. No matter how many times i have read Gods i always see something new. For me knowledge of God is koinoia and intimate fellowship with him that produces fruit in our lives.

Hebrews 7,8,9 Eph 2:15, Romans 7,8 Galatians 3,4,5 , 2Co3, Col 2

Read the following as an article and post any response also as a PM. Please read with an open heart and pray over what you are about to read.

I am fan of Paul for a number of reasons. Primarily his ability to expound upon mysteries of the old covenant in light of the new. Pauls exegesis (Spirit led exegesis) is a standard to us all. If my understanding of covenant theology does not line up with that expressed directly as an exposition by an apostle I throw it away and start again in prayer.


an Example would be when he says "No adulterer will inherit the kingdom of God" if i am an adulterer then can i claim eternal security of the saints because i professed with my lips christ is lord? I could look to other scriptures that say we are all sinners and try and justify human frailty. But as much as i dance around the theological implication of my adultery the scripture clearly articulates that i will have no place in Gods kingdom.

In the light of such an example i will try to re iterate to the best of my limited ability what paul taught about covenant theology with regards to the New vs The Old i.e. continuation or new covenant.

Continuation Theology

Gods ultimate desire in his covenants is that he would be our God and we would be his people. This objective has never changed. Gods nature has not changed either he is still the same God. The blessing of abraham is justification through faith. God set out a paln to be a covenant God to humanity that started with Abraham was legalized in the letter of the law with mosses and ended in Christ. The objective was always Christ. Thats why he swore it would be an "everlasting covenant" or as i like to see it a "covenant of eternity" we often think that "everlasting" means Gods methodology of the covenant is everlasting but it is not the methodology but the relationship between God and his people that is everlasting as you can read in Hebrews 9. In Hebrews 7 paul talks about this change of methodology by first illuminating of the change of priesthood that is required because of the mediation of a new convenant.

So many of the questions we ask are in the new testament as plain as day and they have been expounded upon for us.

In Hebrews 7 and 8 the writer talks about a change of priesthood from the levitical priesthood of the torah to that of Christ. In 8 he says Jesus is a mediator of a much better covenant. God promised in Ezekiel he would “cut” a "new covenant" that would not be according to the old also it would have better promises. Before Looking at Hebrews 9.

Question
What is the purpose of the law for new testament belivers?

Galatians 3:22-27
22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed.
[24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[a] that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. ]
26 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Answer : The law was suppose to lead us to Christ. All scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for our education in the knowledge[instruction] of God.

*Now that faith has come we are no longer under the law*

Question
Are we supposed to completely disregard the torah?
No!!!!
The new testament doesnt say we are to ignore it says its our teacher. When we walk in the spirit we will fulfil the law. When we love God and mankind we fulfil the law automatically. The numerous laws of the Torah are fufilled with one commandment

Christ has paid the price and the Holy spirit enables us to walk in love which in turn fulfill the law.

Question
Jesus said not one thing will pass from the law until it is all fulfilled. Are the righteous requirements of the law fulfilled when we walk in the spirit and are lead of God?

John 19:30
30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, [tel-eh'-o]"It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
When jesus said tel-eh'-o he did’nt mean his ordeal was over. Some say he meant hus work as now complete (I agree). But as he had not yet been raised from the dead. The logical implication is that the debt of sin had been paid in full.
In those days when a contract was satisfactorily completed it would be marked as ‘tel-eh'-o’
tel-eh'-o: to end, that is, complete, execute, conclude, discharge (a debt): - accomplish, make an end, expire, fill up, finish, go over, pay, perform.
The whole essence of the New covenant God promised in Ezekiel is that the Torah is no longer written on Stone, parchment, or PDF files it is now written in our hearts by the Spirit that inspired the torah and we have been empowered by the same Spirit to walk in love and fulfil the laws of God by walking in the Spirit not by walking in the flesh because the flesh results in death.

Question
What was Pauls direct opinion of living by the letter as opposed to living by the Spirit?
2 Co 3
4Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6He has made us competent as ministers of [a new covenant]—not of the [letter =(Torah)] (by implication torah) but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
(When crossed reference with Romans we see that the very purpose of the law is that all men stand condemned before God not that anyone can be justified by it. )
[ 7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses ]
(Torah)

because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!
10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the *surpassing glory*.

11And if what was *fading away* came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away.

14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.

15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect[a] the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
Torah =death
Spirit = life
The writer of Hebrews 9 delves in a bit deeper
Hebrews 9
Worship in the Earthly Tabernacle
1Now the first covenant had regulations for worship and also an earthly sanctuary. 2A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand, the table and the consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. 3Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, 4which had the golden altar of incense and the gold-covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant. 5Above the ark were the cherubim of the Glory, overshadowing the atonement cover.[a] But we cannot discuss these things in detail now.
6When everything had been arranged like this, the priests entered regularly into the outer room to carry on their ministry. 7But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. 9This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.
The Blood of Christ
11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here,[b] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!
15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
16In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep."[e] 21In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

To break Gods law in the new testament is to walk in the flesh and not in the Spirit. It is to have no true love for God and his people. Lawlessness is

The torah in the words of #Paul was the school master God uses to bring people to Christ. Christ walked on the earth as the law incarnate Romans 7. The Law became flesh and came to the very bride he was married to Israel who was unfaithful to him. He said hey you were unfaithful to your husband and that us punishable by death. But I will die in your stead. When he died on the cross he the adultery of his bride was paid for and she was released from the marriage. When he resurrected his marriage became to all those who believe both Jew and gentile. This is the summary of ROMANS 7
The Spirit causes us to walk upright before God. The Torah was never able to produce that
Some will say that’s just Paul but I wont paste the scripture but peter said “His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.”
Divine dunamis=Holy Spirit


Question other than paying for sin did the cross achieve anything else?

Ephesians 2:15

15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,

Colossians 2:13-14

13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,[a] God made you[b] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.



Summary
Galatians 5:18-23
18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Being under the law produces fruits of the Flesh but being led by the Spirit produces fruits of the Spirit.


Stay Blessed

[edited for clarity]


 2010/7/28 6:10Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

by RainMan on 2010/7/28 8:10:32

Quote:
Are we supposed to completely disregard the torah?
No!!!!
The new testament doesnt say we are to ignore it says its our teacher. When we walk in the spirit we will fulfil the law. When we love God and mankind we fulfil the law automatically. The numerous laws of the Torah are fufilled with one commandment



No, it doesn't. Paul writing as a Jew in Galatians says

Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. Gal 3:24,25

that says quite plainly that for a Jew in Christ, the law is no longer his tutor/paedogogos.

Rainman, I am not sure which translation you are using but it is taking some liberties with the text.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/28 6:35Profile
RainMan
Member



Joined: 2010/4/21
Posts: 227


 Re: philologos

"Rainman, I am not sure which translation you are using but it is taking some liberties with the text."

forgive me if i wasnt clear in what i was saying but If you follow the chain of thought down you will see Gal 3:24,25 is part of the text i posted.

I have not implied that the law is still supposed to be our teacher after we (Jew/Gentile) have come to Christ. What i am saying is all scripture is inspired for our education and so we cant simply divide our bible in half and throw one half away. The summary was not we are still in bondage to the law the scriptures i posted to the exposition. Any text or paraphrasing done by me is not exposition of scripture its simply ongoing commentary so its easier to read thorough. its the spirit of what i am trying to articulate not the letter of it ignore my commentary and read just the scriptures and you will see what i am saying

 2010/7/28 6:44Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Robert wrote:

Quote:
I don't view faith in that way. Faith is my response to God when He reveals His will.



What I mean by impute is the same as you have written of in this post. God must initiate the interaction, He must first speak, before I choose to do. Without Him speaking, I am left to the weakness of my own mind. Without Him speaking I can not know what pleases Him. Without Him speaking, I am lost in my own vain imagination.

Quote:
For with God no 'word' shall be impossible. The word 'nothing' in the KJV is the same root as ῥήματι in Matthew 4:4 (root rhema) and means 'word'. When God speaks the word itself carries with it the ability to accomplish what God is saying. In other words the word spoken by God contains the grace to do what God is saying.



Yes this is true. So why, when I ask many here on this thread, to read the testimony of a man who gives us a detailed view of what you are speaking of, no one admits or recognizes that the man who wrote Psalm 119 is our example of the New Life of which you speak?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/28 7:13Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Quote:
Christ is our example. His life was characterized by being led of the Spirit. He was not moving in His own will- He was moving in the will of the Father at all times.



Christ has always been our example, from Adam onward. Job who lived during Abraham's time knew Christ.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/28 7:16Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

I have not yet seen anyone seek to answer this question...

We are called to Love God and our neighbor according to the words Christ pointed to in the OT. Have these two commandments passed away?


You see we have another "predicament"

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/28 7:19Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Rainman

You are correct in what you said of the Scriptures. We cannot cut the word of God in two.

You are also correct in that Christ's work in us through the Holy Spirit does fulfill the law. From the very beginning of this thread, there a those who do not see or understand the depth of this truth.

Christ is always pleased when we allow the Holy Scriptures to have it's ways in our lives.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/28 8:10Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

by RainMan on 2010/7/28 8:44:30

Quote:
What i am saying is all scripture is inspired for our education and so we cant simply divide our bible in half and throw one half away.



I don't think anyone has suggested this, I certainly haven't. The question is not the inspiration of the scripture but the interpretation. I believe it is essential that we interpret the Old Testament in the light of the New Testament. The NT and the writings of Paul and others in that canon provide the definitive exposition of the Old Testament.

I spend as much time in the Old Testament as I do in the New. I created a Bible Reading programme designed to do just that.

Tyndale, quoting Luther, in his prologue to the letter to the Romans says

"foreasmuch as this epistle is the principal and most excellent part of the new testament, and most pure evangelion, that is to say glad tidings and that we call gospel, and also a light and a way into the whole scripture..."

that last clause is Luther, endorsed by Tyndale, telling us that the letter to the Romans is a light and a way into the whole scripture. The letter to the Romans is the best possible introduction to the OLD TESTAMENT.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/28 11:47Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

by rookie on 2010/7/28 9:19:06

Quote:
We are called to Love God and our neighbor according to the words Christ pointed to in the OT. Have these two commandments passed away?



I am not sure why this would be considered a predicament as you call it.

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Gal 5:14

'thou shalt love' in Greek is literally one word...Ἀγαπήσεις

We fulfil the law of Christ not by endeavouring to keep the commandments as prescribed in Exodus 20 but by love. In so doing we fulfil the righteous requirement of the law without being subject to the law.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/28 11:53Profile





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