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RainMan
Member



Joined: 2010/4/21
Posts: 227


 Re: Philo

Carrying on from hebrews 7 and 8
Here are just a few scriptures to ponder



Galatians 4:21-31

21 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.

24 These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is written:
"Be glad, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband."[b]

28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.

30 But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."[c]



31 Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.


Ephesians 2:12-15

12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace



Romans 7

1Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man.

4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature,[a] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
Struggling With Sin
7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."[b] 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.





 2010/7/27 12:18Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Continuing on with our original subject, just to rehash, God is bringing many sons unto glory. He has never swerved from His plan to make man in His image and likeness.

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. (II Peter 1:4)

Notice the context of this passage:


Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: (II Peter 1:2, 3)

The source of the promises is Jesus Christ. Perhaps equally so, 'the revelation of Jesus Christ.' It was not until Jesus Christ came into this world, died and rose again that the fulness of the promises were even possible. Notice this passage:

At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. (John 14:19)

This was a future event. This is the great summary of the New Covenant, "ye in me, and I in you." This is what makes being a new creature possible. We are born 'in Adam', but we are born from above 'in Jesus Christ.' Therefor if any man be 'in' Christ...

The Old Covenant simply could not take us to the place and do what was done at that day (when) ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/27 16:40Profile
redbaileyboy
Member



Joined: 2010/7/22
Posts: 1


 Re: New Covenant

The TRUTH of the NEW Covenant is Christ Himself! Just as HIS lovingkindness is new every morning,so is his presence, as he is the same yesterday,today and forever.

We are NEW creatures with a NEW nature under a New convenant of HIS love and grace! Life truly is a New adventure with the beginning of each NEW day!

In Christ Jesus, we can never have more and we should never enjoy less!

"Contentment is realizng that in Christ we have all we need"

Glenn

 2010/7/27 18:43Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Travis wrote:

Quote:
God had, I believe through the covenant He made with Abraham and the testing of the covenant by the willingness of Abraham to offer his "only begotten son" that allowed God to reciprocate to legally keep His part of the covenant that, shown to Abraham what would be the end of this covenant, Jesus Christ and atonement for sin.



The example of Abraham's life is given to us so that we might understand how a God given faith enabled Abraham to obey God's commandment.

We find this testimony of how Abraham had come to trust the Lord with his only Son.

.......................................................................................................................
Hbr 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Hbr 11:18 of whom it was said, "In Isaac your seed shall be called," [fn]

Hbr 11:19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.
.....................................................................................................................

You see that Abraham "concluding that God was able" is the key to this testing. During the course of Abraham's life, we see that God first speaks to Abraham and expects a response. Because Abraham did what God asked of him, (belief equals obedience), he was able to actually experience the faithfulness of God. God proved to Abraham that His word is stayed and true.
So after years of interacting with God, Abraham could "conclude" that God's covenant would always be true for him. This example is given to us so that we too might recognize what a "God given faith" can overcome in our own lives.


But that is a side issue in my question.

Do you see that the man who wrote Psalm 119 could also expect that God through His Holy Spirit enable him to overcome lying and covetousness?

This man's testimony states with confidence like Abraham that God would enable this man to.....
.......................................................................................................................Psa 119:44 So shall I keep Your law continually, Forever and ever.

Psa 119:45 And I will walk at liberty, For I seek Your precepts.
.......................................................................................................................

Is this man's testimony, inspired by the Holy Spirit, delusional or true?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/27 19:39Profile









 Re:

Obedience to Torah is something Jesus expects and Paul did not mince words about it either:

Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision nothing, but (what matters is) keeping God's commandments-and-precepts.
I Cor. 7:19
(trans-literated fr. gk)

Through this verse, amongst several others, we see that Paul never advocated breaking God's prescribed way to live in love towards God and our neighbor.

It's sad to see teachers who say the Law is abolished when Jesus said it would not be done with until everything in the Prophets had been fulfilled and heaven and earth passed away.

It tears me up inside to see so many deluded souls who tell others that the Old Covenant is abolished.

Jesus gave specific details as to when this would happen, and that time has not yet come---> Rev. 19.10.

To how many will Jesus declare on that day "depart from me, i never knew you, you law-breaker?"

Why are so many confused about the NT's references to the Law?

Though i may never piece it all together congruently...
though i may never fully understand...
though i will never in this life be able to abide by all of it...
...is that any reason to avoid it?

You certainly will never come closer to understanding God's Law by running from it. Jesus said to keep it, not run from it.

How will you observe and keep what you do not know?

Do you really Love Jesus?
Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments."


Some fail to understand Paul's writings as a comprehensive whole, so they choose what they like and ignore the rest.

Why do some only adhere to what scriptures support their way of thinking and ignore the rest?
(Is this what faith(fulness) towards God is all about?)


Some say and think "well let's move foreward," yet the verses that Paul used to claim the validity of what God expects through His written code of conduct are ignored, or won't hardly mention John and Peter and James and Jude wherever law-biding is mentioned (except to prove that you can't be righteous by keeping the Law), and then: slap God in the face by not even giving credit to the Author and Finisher of our Faith when he says: all the Law shall not pass away til heaven and earth do and "if you will see eternal life, keep the commandments/precepts.
(What kind of faith is that?)

What's wrong with that picture?

Teaching others that you disregard obeying our Father's rules for good living, then telling others that they can just ignore what God has given for our benefit is like biting the Hand that feeds you. At it's best, it is turning your back on God's designed way to live in love.

Some top it off by avoiding what Jesus taught and promised those who disobeyed.

Well, turning a blind eye will not change the facts. Ignoring God's rules towards living will not make them go away.

It is wholeheartedly agreed with anybody who has stated that there is nothing in the Law that makes us right(oeus) before God; however, since Jesus says it is still valid, it does serve other purposes besides what most who post to this thread are over-emphasising.

You know, there is a good reason God provided the teachings (aka:Torah), and he never expected any fallen human to attain rightoeusness through it. (This is the reason he has always provided a proxy sacrafice to suffer the consequences to our 'missing the mark.')

God's Law is not legalism, neither is following His lead in it.

Legalism is when we think that by doing anything other than what God prescribes towards Covenant in Him we are making a way for ourselves into God's favor. It is by thinking that we can do anything through our own efforts to please God, that we walk legalistically...and there are alot of folks bound in legalism that do not keep one bit of God's code of conduct.


Much of what has been proclaimed on this thread is a comprehensive misunderstanding of the fact that the Old Covenant actually was never abolished, but made more valid, more real through Jesus' Sacrafice.

The old is fading: yes!, but hardly has it been abolished. It will not come to completion then accordingly pass away for quite some time either.





How much this will have to be repeated remains to be seen:

to be "under the law" is in reference to "the curse of the law," and in Jesus' annointing, we do not come under the Law's curse as we are then not walking in the flesh.

People who say they are only under or of grace are missing the point.

The Law of God is His grace revealed to those he has chosen to reign with Him: kings and preists of His holy nation...

...or would you prefer to hear: "LEAVE ME LAW-BREAKER!"






Romans 8:
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.



To claim that you are not under (the curse of the) Law is to claim that you are always walking in the Spirit, right???

Now look at the Romans 8 verses re-versed, just to get a better perspective on what is actually being said there:

They that live according to the flesh concern themselves with satisfying the flesh. They that are in the flesh cannot please God because their carnal mind is at war against God: those who walk after the flesh are condemned for to be carnally minded is death.

What the Law could not do because of the weakness of our flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and (by a sacrafice) for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteousness of the Law could be fulfilled in us who walk after the Spirit: for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus who walk according to the Spirit.


The Spirit of the Law long ago provided the letter of the Law.

The more your life conforms to walking as Jesus walked, the more closely you live in the Spirit, the more the Law will be recognizable in your life.

God only gave one standard of righteousness: taking up your cross and dying daily, and living your life in the Spirit of Jesus Christ's resurrection power.

God gave us a standard of conduct: conformity to the image of Jesus Christ. Jesus never said, "just do what i say and don't do as i do." Jesus kept the spirit and letter of the Law, told us to do the same, and provided the means, that we, in Him, might accomplish this.



You be imitators of God, just like dearly loved children:
For the grace of God bringing salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all law-breaking, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

~Ephesians 5:1 in affiliation with Titus 2:11-14


Faith, Hope, and Love,
gregg

edited: for too many resons worth listing

 2010/7/27 19:39
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Robert wrote"

Quote:
The Old Covenant simply could not take us to the place and do what was done at that day (when) ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.



Only the covenant made 430 years before the Mount Sinai covenant enables man to be known by God. It is only by Faith.

Why do many fail to consider how God imputes faith into a man?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/27 19:46Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

RainMan quoted Hebrews 8:6-20

specifically:

Quote:
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.



Have you seen that God only gave the Covenant of Mount Sinai to Israel after they rejected Him while still in Egypt?
.......................................................................................................................
Eze 20:5 "Say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "On the day when I chose Israel and raised My hand in an oath to the descendants of the house of Jacob, and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, I raised My hand in an oath to them, saying, 'I am the LORD your God.'

Eze 20:6 "On that day I raised My hand in an oath to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt into a land that I had searched out for them, 'flowing with milk and honey,' the glory of all lands.

Eze 20:7 "Then I said to them, 'Each of you, throw away the abominations which are before his eyes, and do not defile yourselves with the idols of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.'

Eze 20:8 "But they rebelled against Me and would not obey Me. They did not all cast away the abominations which were before their eyes, nor did they forsake the idols of Egypt. Then I said, 'I will pour out My fury on them and fulfill My anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.'

Eze 20:9 "But I acted for My name's sake, that it should not be profaned before the Gentiles among whom they were, in whose sight I had made Myself known to them, to bring them out of the land of Egypt.

Eze 20:10 "Therefore I made them go out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness.

Eze 20:11 "And I gave them My statutes and showed them My judgments, 'which, if a man does, he shall live by them.' [fn]

Eze 20:12 "Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.
.......................................................................................................................

So we see first the Covenant made to Abraham, in which God speaks this way to Abraham:

......................................................................................................................
Gen 17:7 "And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.
......................................................................................................................

In the covenant made with Abraham, this covenant not only was made with Abraham but also to Abraham's descendants beginning with Isaac and every generation that followed Isaac. This covenant is an "everlasting covenant" in which God promise to "be God to ....your descendants..."

We know from Paul's teaching that this covenant contains the "promise." And that the "promise" was extended to Abraham as well as us in this generation. This promise is that God would be God to us in an everlasting covenant.

Going back to Ezekiel 20:5, we see that God extends once again "the everlasting covenant" to the generation living in Egypt. And then the Scriptures declare that God called upon them to cast off the idols of Egypt. We see that Scriptures states that this generation did not obey God. We see then that Scriptures state that God thought to destroy that generation. We see then that Scriptures states that God then relented and still brought them out of Egypt. We seen then that Scriptures states that then God gave them the "Old Covenant" which the book of Hebrews is citing in the section you have quoted from.

Based on Ezekiel 20, why did God see the need to "spell out" to Israel what God expected of them?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/27 20:24Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Mar 12:29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Mar 12:30 'And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment. [fn]

Mar 12:31 "And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these.
.........................................................................................................................

Does Paul teach that the commandments in the above section of Scripture are annulled by the New Covenant?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/27 20:40Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

by redbaileyboy on 2010/7/27 20:43:36

Quote:
The TRUTH of the NEW Covenant is Christ Himself! Just as HIS lovingkindness is new every morning,so is his presence, as he is the same yesterday,today and forever.



This is a theme that I am glad to see brought up.

I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; Is 42:6

Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; Is 49:8

In both of these verse from Isaiah, which are clearly messianic, Christ himself is described as The Covenant. The scripture describes him as the mediator of the covenant but that is not the whole story; he is the personification of the Covenant.

When scripture speaks of the blood of Christ it is referring to 'the life that is in the blood' which was poured out in atoning sacrifice at Calvary. The Sinai Covenant was declared but not in force until the blood of animals was shed and sprinkled on people and book and altar. That covenant was ratified with the words of Moses...

And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled [it] on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words. Ex 24:8

Christ consciously echoed these words in the upper room when he said...

Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. Lu 22:20

The Covenant was manifested in his life and that life was poured out in atoning sacrifice. It is only as we are connected with that sacrifice and that life that the New Covenant becomes operational in the life of the believer.


Quote:
We are NEW creatures with a NEW nature under a New convenant of HIS love and grace! Life truly is a New adventure with the beginning of each NEW day!



but this is only true if it is true. It is not true because we have understood it or read it in the scripture but when his life has been imparted to us by the Spirit that the New Covenant becomes a reality in our lives. It it only true when we are 'in Christ' and that not as a theological statement but a living experience.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/28 3:19Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

by rookie on 2010/7/27 22:24:30

Quote:
In the covenant made with Abraham, this covenant not only was made with Abraham but also to Abraham's descendants beginning with Isaac and every generation that followed Isaac. This covenant is an "everlasting covenant" in which God promise to "be God to ....your descendants..."



The Abrahamic covenant needed to be renewed in every generation. It is specifically renewed with Isaac and Jacob. Hence he is the God of Abraham AND Isaac AND Jacob.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/28 3:23Profile





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