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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Why all this emphasis on Paul and converting the words he wrote through the Holy Spirit's directives into opinions or other people's commentaries.

Paul's writings do not even comprise .08 of the Bible.

Something is way out of kilter when we cannot even come to terms with the whole of scripture without seemingly contradicting the over emphasised less than 8% of the Bible.

Did Paul contradict Jesus?

No he did not; yet, if our rendition of what Paul is saying does not align with the other over 92% of the scriptures, we are wrong and our idea of what (we think is) scriptural doctrine is dead in the water.



You are not reckoning on the progressive nature of Biblical revelation.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/27 4:48Profile









 Re:

Phillip,

i am not claiming anything in contradiction to Paul. i may write things that stand in contrast, yet these things do not conflict or God in His testimony is contradicting Himself.

We are on the same page on what you have written the last three pages except for two things:

1. Grace is the result of, and as such, flows from mercy.

God says "I would have mercy and not sacrafice...," and the ramifications to this seem infinite.

In this, grace and mercy contrast, yet they hardly stand in contradiction of one another.


2. When a stoning was done according to Jewish custom, it is the offended party that holds the garments of the legalists who think they are following God, but really are putting themselves under the Law, for God has said, "Judge not, and you shall not be judged," and again, "if we judge ourselves we shall not be judged," and again "forgive and you will be forgiven," and finally,"mercy shall be onto the one who shows mercy."

Paul was offended with Stephen's message, and although his instructor Gamaliel suggested it best (to the whole council of 70(+5) ) to leave the follower's of Jesus alone, Paul holding -as coat checker STS- the garments, (and so many that they were laid at Paul's feet,) indicates that he was heading up the vehement opposition to what Stephen through the inspiration of the Spirit of Christ had accused these Jewish leaders of having done.

Paul was not the exclusive recipient of the whole of the message he preached. The foundation of Paul's message was laid by Stephen.

God chose Paul to carry on where Stephen had left off.

Read Stephen's proclamation before his stoning, and consider the events that transpired during this. Then take the time to read the Pauline Epistles always considering what Paul says in relation to Stephen's last hour. Anyone doing this will clearly realize that most everything Paul taught is contained, in some way, shape, or form, in that very message Stephen preached.

If one looks closely, the specifics of exactly what it was that God gave revelation exclusively to Paul can be understood when all related to Stephens message is filtered out and considered seperately.

You have virtually nailed it completely on he head in your quote of Col. 1: 23-29, yet there is a bit more to it than that.

You have posted regarding the exact place God is currently directing me in study, having just completed Galatians.



What is continually being requested of God in this is to be able to see and tell others how Paul is not saying anything at all that contradicts the other over 92% of the Bible, instead of what Protestantism has degraded into:

a church that is no longer adhering to the philosophies and dictates from the world through either legalism or antinomianism, which are idolatry;
no longer coveting a way that is other than what God dictates as His absolute standard through the coming fullness of the New Covenant...
...where spirit and letter meet as one, as the grace of God is expressed in His Love: and Love is the Law;

...where mercy and grace walk hand in hand and the glory of Jesus Christ fills the universe as reality of His immortal magesty consumes all the heavens and the earth.

Our God is love, a consuming fire!

Glory to God forever and ever!

Amen!

 2010/7/27 5:40









 Re:

by philologos on 2010/7/27 0:48:09


You are not reckoning on the progressive nature of Biblical revelation.
------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe you might not be doing this, as speaking in terms of the progressive nature of Biblical revelation, this is a consideration regarding linear time, past to present.



Who wrote first: Paul or John, Jude, and so on?

again:

Who is the beginning and the end?...yet John repeats in the book of Revelation the same message he gave in John14:15, 17, 21, 23 as in I John (particularily the start of chapter 5), in total agreement with Jesus as He proclaimed in the beginning and end of His Sermon on the Mount.

and finally:

God does not change.
Further revelation never (before Paul) contradicted anything that God formerly said or did. What would give any man the right to claim that God has changed through what he says or does afterwards?

More could be said about Peter and Jude and James, yet the clear evidence is that something is being misunderstood from Paul's message.


edited: for greater clarity

 2010/7/27 5:49
RainMan
Member



Joined: 2010/4/21
Posts: 227


 Re: Hebrews 8

Hebrews 8:6-20

6 But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.

7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and said[a]:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
9 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12 For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."[b]

13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

 2010/7/27 6:08Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

travis wrote:

Quote:
Under the law, a man was guilty before God if he committed adultery. But what if he lived with lust for many women in his heart and mind all of his life? As long as he did not act on his lust he was legally free to lust. But what did Jesus say in Matthew 5. What made us think that simply avoiding the action of adultery was God's perfect standard anyway? His standard is His own righteousness, something that is totally unattainable by any effort of mankind. Avoiding adultery was never the standard. It is good and righteous to avoid adultery, but it was never a code of conduct that if kept somehow made us sexually pure before God. It was never God's standard of righteous conduct. It was, however, high enough a standard that people struggled to keep it in their own power and were convinced that they were not righteous and needed atonement.



especially this point.....

Quote:
t was, however, high enough a standard that people struggled to keep it in their own power and were convinced that they were not righteous and needed atonement.



......................................................................................................................
Psa 119:29 Remove from me the way of lying, And grant me Your law graciously.

Psa 119:30 I have chosen the way of truth; Your judgments I have laid before me.

Psa 119:31 I cling to Your testimonies; O LORD, do not put me to shame!

Psa 119:32 I will run the course of Your commandments, For You shall enlarge my heart.
.....................................................................................................................

Also

...................................................................................................................
.Psa 119:35 Make me walk in the path of Your commandments, For I delight in it.

Psa 119:36 Incline my heart to Your testimonies, And not to covetousness.

Psa 119:37 Turn away my eyes from looking at worthless things, And revive me in Your way. [fn]
......................................................................................................................

Also

......................................................................................................................
Psa 119:44 So shall I keep Your law continually, Forever and ever.

Psa 119:45 And I will walk at liberty, For I seek Your precepts.
........................................................................................................................

This man lived in a generation that was under the covenant given on Mount Sinai.

How does this man know that God's grace can free him from the curse of the law?

In CHrist
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/27 6:23Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

What many fail to recognize or understand is that a God given faith, the promise given to Abraham and in all the generations that followed him is not anulled by the covenant given on Mount Sinai.

The promise of the Father is given through faith.

The law of God
......................................................................................................................
Mar 12:30 'And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment. [fn]


Mar 12:31 "And the second, like it, is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."
......................................................................................................................

can only be known through the grace of God that is given to man through faith. Man cannot obey the Law of God without the power of God.

Do you understand what God given faith does to a man?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/27 6:47Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
How does this man know that God's grace can free him from the curse of the law? In CHrist Jeff



Jeff: There were several men who lived under the old covenant who caught a true glimpse of the coming day of Christ and what His atonement would do. Two that come to mind specifically are Abraham and David.

Jesus said, "Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it, and was glad." If you take all OT and NT scriptures pertaining to the promises and covenant God made with Abraham, you realize that Abraham's believing God and it being counted for righteousness was a seeing and believing of something far greater than simply, "OK, I believe we will have children." Abraham believed in the seed that would come through which atonement for sin would take place. God had, I believe through the covenant He made with Abraham and the testing of the covenant by the willingness of Abraham to offer his "only begotten son" that allowed God to reciprocate to legally keep His part of the covenant that, shown to Abraham what would be the end of this covenant, Jesus Christ and atonement for sin.

David was a man after God's heart. Why would this statement be made? I believe because David caught a glimpse of God's plan of atonement, of redemption through one sacrifice for all men for all time. How he caught hold of this I don't know other than that fact that David was himself prophetic. Many of his Psalms are very prophetic of Christ's coming and what would be accomplished.


_________________
Travis

 2010/7/27 9:17Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
More could be said about Peter and Jude and James, yet the clear evidence is that something is being misunderstood from Paul's message.



or something is being misunderstood about the whole nature of the scripture. The coming of Jesus Christ has changed everything. His death has inaugurated a New Covenant which is fulfilment of the prophecy of Jeremiah is 'not like' the Old Covenant.

The Old Covenant is now dead in the water. It is no longer in force; its blessings and curses which were specifically aimed at Israel are no longer operational. The New has come and the Old has gone. He took away the first so that he might establish the second.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/27 11:16Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote: "There were several men who lived under the old covenant who caught a true glimpse of the coming day of Christ and what His atonement would do."

And the writer of Ps. 119 was well aware of that... was aware that something was missing.

"Mine eyes fail for thy salvation, and for the word of thy righteousness" (Ps. 119.123).


_________________
Allan Halton

 2010/7/27 11:24Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

One of the key words of Hebrews is 'better'. The writer expounds the New Covenant not by 'adding it' to the Old Covenant but by contrasting it to the Old Covenant.

for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God. Hbr 7:19

The ministry of the New Covenant is better than that of the Old Covenant because it has a different kind of priest. During the time when the Levitical priesthood was functioning David prophesied that God would bring in another priesthood.

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Heb 8:6

It is a better covenant because it is based on better promises and because it is serviced by a better high priest who is operating under a better priesthood.

For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Heb 8:7,8

If the first (Sinai) Covenant had been perfect it would not have been replaced. But the writer carefully points out the problem with the Old Covenant when it says God 'found fault with them' - not with 'it'. The weakness of the Old Covenant was caused by the members of 'the house of Israel and the house of Judah'.

I don't know how much more plainly the writer could have shown that the the 'first covenant' has been superseded by 'the second'.

Writing somewhere round about 64 AD the writer goes on to say…

In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Heb 8:13

Less than a decade had passed before the Old Covenant last vestiges were swept away in the destruction of the temple and its Levitical ceremonies. The Old Covenant cannot function without a Levitical priesthood. The prediction of Heb 8:13 was tragically fulfilled. The Old Covenant now only exists in the minds of some men and women. Even if its outer ceremonials were recreated it would just be an elaborate fake. It had always had a specific shelf life…

What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Gal 3:19

…it was added… until… The Seed,says Paul categorically, is Christ.

The Old Covenant was a parenthesis is the unfolding drama of redemption.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/27 11:38Profile





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