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 Re:

by philologos on 2010/7/20 9:22:31

(Galatians 4:21–25 KJV)
“Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? Gal. 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. Gal. 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Gal. 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. Gal. 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.”

Paul, speaking as a Jew says 'we were children, we were in bondage...
The Old Covenant, says Paul, produces bondage.
------------------------------------------------------------
That last statement is dead wrong.

Have you not read in this thread that the Old Covenant is the Everlasting Covenant even as the New is now giving reality to the shadow? (They are tied together as one thing. It started with Abraham and was made completely valid in Jesus Christ.)

Paul never said the Old Covenant produced bondage. Paul always said sin produced bondage, and the Law just made it recognizable: like a mirror.


In Him,
g
Acts 20:32

 2010/7/22 14:33









 Re:

by philologos on 2010/7/22 1:34:08

Quote:
This is critical to understanding "what man becomes." Cain was condemned by the Law, and Able became a child of God.



The 'Law' did not exist in the time of Cain and Abel.
------------------------------------------------------------

Be specific which Law.

There is the moral Law of God which always has existed.

The Mosaic Law brought the shadow of Jesus Christ into view, even as the ten commandments are from His very hand.

The Mosaic Law was a shadow of God's ten commands.



 2010/7/22 14:40
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Be specific which Law.

There is the moral Law of God which always has existed.


We established that many pages ago.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/22 16:13Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Paul, speaking as a Jew says 'we were children, we were in bondage...
The Old Covenant, says Paul, produces bondage.
------------------------------------------------------------
That last statement is dead wrong.

Have you not read in this thread that the Old Covenant is the Everlasting Covenant even as the New is now giving reality to the shadow? (They are tied together as one thing. It started with Abraham and was made completely valid in Jesus Christ.)

Paul never said the Old Covenant produced bondage. Paul always said sin produced bondage, and the Law just made it recognizable: like a mirror.



"For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—" Gal 4:24–25 NKJV


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/22 16:20Profile









 Re:

by philologos on 2010/7/22 12:13:58

Quote:
Be specific which Law.

There is the moral Law of God which always has existed.


We established that many pages ago.
------------------------------------------------------------
ok?

That must have been missed. i apologize.

My wrong...i'm sorry.

i don't know how to say it...

so i'll sit back and read until He shows me what it exactly is.

So, is it established already in this thread that only circucision as sign of, and the old priesthood and regimen of that have been the only thing to change?
(Hebrews is recalled and how we had not gotten into the full details of this.)


Still conforming to Him,
g
Acts 20:32

 2010/7/22 16:57









 Re:

Quote:
Paul, speaking as a Jew says 'we were children, we were in bondage...
The Old Covenant, says Paul, produces bondage.
------------------------------------------------------------
That last statement is dead wrong.

Have you not read in this thread that the Old Covenant is the Everlasting Covenant even as the New is now giving reality to the shadow? (They are tied together as one thing. It started with Abraham and was made completely valid in Jesus Christ.)

Paul never said the Old Covenant produced bondage. Paul always said sin produced bondage, and the Law just made it recognizable: like a mirror.



"For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—" Gal 4:24–25 NKJV

------------------------------------------------------------

This may be semantic differences and what the verbs are referring to, rather than what they appear to be compared to the context in which they are stated.

It can be seen easily enough how following any of God's Covenant instead of the Author thereof 'gives birth' to bondage, however in context of Galatians (and Hebrews), it is about going back to the old Levitical regimens.


See Abraham believed God first and then he did things in obedience(like circumcision) to confirm the shadow of what had transpired.

Galatians is going to be closely scrutinized because something about this does not 'check' right inside.
(Col. 3:15)

Still conforming to His image,
g
Acts 20:32

 2010/7/22 17:06
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
So, is it established already in this thread that only circucision as sign of, and the old priesthood and regimen of that have been the only thing to change?



This thread has established that the Old Covenant has passed away with the advent of the Seed (Jesus Christ).

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. (Galatians 3:19)

The New Covenant brings the possibility of establishing the Law through the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.

Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Romans 3:30, 31)

How? If we are not now working at keeping the law how can we establish it? Answer: by bearing the fruit of the Spirit- something one could never do under the Law.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (Galatians 5:22, 23)

It is the positive production of the fruit of the Spirit that keeps the regenerate within the boundaries of God's revealed character (as it is articulated in the form of positive and negative commandments commonly known as the Law). This is how Paul could say with conviction and without contradiction:

And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. (I Corinthians 9:20, 21)

If Paul is walking in the Spirit- bearing the fruit of the Spirit (as a matter of course) he need not fear being contrary to the precepts of the Law. Why?

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:3, 4)

The regenerate are walking, living, breathing expressions of Jesus Christ because they are the generation of Jesus Christ. Having been Born of God they do by nature those things contained in the Law because it is God working in them both to will and to do His good pleasure. The Law is only a written expression of the personality of God- Jesus Christ is the express image of His person. When we walk even as He walked we will not sin against the Law.

For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. (ROmans 13:9, 10)










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Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/22 18:41Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Robert wrote:

Quote:
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. (Galatians 5:22, 23)

It is the positive production of the fruit of the Spirit that keeps the regenerate within the boundaries of God's revealed character (as it is articulated in the form of positive and negative commandments commonly known as the Law). This is how Paul could say with conviction and without contradiction:



Yes, yes, yes.

I took about 20 minutes to go through Psalm 119. The fruit of the Spirit is present in this man's life.

Here is a list that is far from perfect, but if you are honestly seeking the truth you will find:

Love: verses...10,11,12,20,34,47,57,68,77,97,131,132,174

Joy: verses...14,24,54,103,111,127,129,162,164,171

Faith: verses...26,32,35,49,59,61,62,67,81,82,102,105,109,112,116,117,123,144,152,166,173

Meekness: verses...28,71,75,80,88,107,136,141,145,146,147,168,176

Peace: verses...23,42,87,92,93,114,142,160,161,165

Temperance: verses...29,36,37,45,101,104,128,133,163

Longsuffering: verses...50,51,61,69,84,86,98,110,143,153

Gentleness: verses...126,115,95,86,134


How does an OT Saint obtain the fruits of the Spirit?

In Christ
jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/22 21:57Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Earlier in the thread I stated that Job knew the 10 commandments....

No one said anything, so does that mean that everyone is in agreement with this statement?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/22 21:59Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Here is a list that is far from perfect, but if you are honestly seeking the truth you will find:

Love: verses...10,11,12,20,34,47,57,68,77,97,131,132,174



I would suggest that when we move into the New Covenant we are moving in a much higher revelation of love than had ever been revealed.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8)

This is agape. This is not to say that men and women have not at times exhibited certain characteristics of God's nature, but none were ever as was Jesus Christ. The bar has been greatly elevated. Jesus Christ is the express image of the invisible God. To see Him is to have seen the Father. And yet we read:

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Romans 8:29)

God's desire is to bring many sons unto glory. He wants individuals to have the personality of Christ. His will is that were become partakers of the Divine Nature.

I think the challenge is to know that although God often accepts imperfection He expects perfection and is relentlessly pursuing it in our lives. Thank God for that. Unless we are perfected in the character of Jesus Christ we will fall short of God's original plan to make man in His image and likeness. To fall short of perfection is to have a believer name the name of Christ and at the same time misrepresent Him. And this is where the Old Covenant falls woefully short. The Law is only able to give precepts designed to create a sense of love for God and ones neighbor. If one were to absolutely follow the Law they may well 'seem' to be loving. Certain animals can actually be trained to appear civilized; yet their true nature will come out at certain times. Training can work to restrain their nature. The law can only ever seek to restrain man's nature by giving guidelines for behavior and penalties for breaking those guidelines.

This is utterly different than a demonstration of the Divine Nature made possible in the New Covenant. If one is 'in' Jesus Christ they are supernaturally enabled to be expressions of the invisible God in such a way that Christ is not ashamed to call us brethren. (Hebrews 2:11) We can be rightfully called 'the sons of God.'

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. (I John 3:1)

The very people that made their boast in the Law did not know Jesus Christ. They did not recognize Him. They were moving in a different spirit (Ephesians 2:1ff) that would just as soon call fire down from heaven and destroy people than show them mercy. They may have been in compliance with the Law- but they knew not what manor of Spirit they were of. God has called us to love even our enemies and do good to them. This is not the experience of folk under the Old Covenant, especially in the 1st Century. They were forever looking for ways to circumvent the precepts of God's law in order NOT to love. This only proves that one can teach all they want to- but until the heart is replaced and a New Spirit given- the selfish nature of old Adam is still in play. The Law cannot but restrain old Adam. We needed a New Man. We needed God's man- Jesus Christ.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/23 3:43Profile





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