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rookie
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 Re:

philologos quoted Gal 4:2

to focus on this thought:

Quote:
were in bondage under the elements of the world:



Was this man according to Scripture held "in bondage under the elements of the world"?
.........................................................
Psa 119:1 Blessed [are] the undefiled in the way, Who walk in the law of the LORD!

Psa 119:2 Blessed [are] those who keep His testimonies, Who seek Him with the whole heart!

Psa 119:3 They also do no iniquity; They walk in His ways.
...........................................................

also
......................................................

Psa 119:18 Open my eyes, that I may see Wondrous things from Your law.

Psa 119:19 I [am] a stranger in the earth; Do not hide Your commandments from me.

Psa 119:20 My soul breaks with longing For Your judgments at all times.
..........................................................

Does this testimony represent a man who is held "in bondage under the elements of the world"?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/20 10:10Profile
rookie
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 Re:

tractsman wrote:

Quote:
Too often today people think that the emphasis is directed toward the Holy Ghost(worthy of praise)but Jesus Christ directs in John 16:13 that God is glorified



Only those whom the Father draws comes to Christ. The Life, the Light of men, has from the beginning been the mediator of a better Covenant. No one has seen the Father except the Son. It is the Son whom we see thoughtout the OT. He is the Holy One of Israel. He is the High Priest of God Almighty, Melchizedek.

The doctrine of the Trinity is true. And the entirety of Scripture point to the existence of the Trinity.

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.

Jhn 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Jhn 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.


The testimonies of the OT saints reveal the work of Christ in them. Read the testimony of a man who experienced the work of God through the Holy Spirit. Psalm 119

Quote:
I enjoy when someone tells about the "simplicity" in Christ, knowing that the gospel of our salvation can be understood and accepted by "a child" or as the Lord said in Matt. 18:3 we excercise "child like" faith/ both ways it brings us to Christ...old or young.



How does your thought about simplicity align with this Scripture?

...........................................................
Pro 1:2 To know wisdom and instruction, To perceive the words of understanding,

Pro 1:3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, Justice, judgment, and equity;

Pro 1:4 To give prudence to the simple, To the young man knowledge and discretion--

Pro 1:5 A wise [man] will hear and increase learning, And a man of understanding will attain wise counsel,

Pro 1:6 To understand a proverb and an enigma, The words of the wise and their riddles.


and then this exhortation........

Pro 1:20 Wisdom calls aloud outside; She raises her voice in the open squares.

Pro 1:21 She cries out in the chief concourses, [fn] At the openings of the gates in the city She speaks her words:

Pro 1:22 "How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity? For scorners delight in their scorning, And fools hate knowledge.

Pro 1:23 Turn at my rebuke; Surely I will pour out my spirit on you; I will make my words known to you.
..........................................................

How does the Scripture treat "simplicity" in this section.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/20 10:42Profile
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 Re:

philologos wrote:

Quote:
The 'latter times' terminus quo is the day of Pentecost. The last days stretch from the coming of the Seed to the end of time. Peter, quoting Joel, is declaring that the last times have begun.



Has this time which is said to precede the out pouring upon His people happened yet?
.........................................................
Joe 2:10 The earth quakes before them, The heavens tremble; The sun and moon grow dark, And the stars diminish their brightness.

Joe 2:11 The LORD gives voice before His army, For His camp is very great; For strong [is the One] who executes His word. For the day of the LORD [is] great and very terrible; Who can endure it?

Joe 2:12 "Now, therefore," says the LORD, "Turn to Me with all your heart, With fasting, with weeping, and with mourning."

Joe 2:13 So rend your heart, and not your garments; Return to the LORD your God, For He [is] gracious and merciful, Slow to anger, and of great kindness; And He relents from doing harm.

Joe 2:14 Who knows [if] He will turn and relent, And leave a blessing behind Him-- A grain offering and a drink offering For the LORD your God?

Joe 2:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, Consecrate a fast, Call a sacred assembly;

Joe 2:16 Gather the people, Sanctify the congregation, Assemble the elders, Gather the children and nursing babes; Let the bridegroom go out from his chamber, And the bride from her dressing room.

Joe 2:17 Let the priests, who minister to the LORD, Weep between the porch and the altar; Let them say, "Spare Your people, O LORD, And do not give Your heritage to reproach, That the nations should rule over them. Why should they say among the peoples, 'Where [is] their God?' "

Joe 2:18 Then the LORD will be zealous for His land, And pity His people.

Joe 2:19 The LORD will answer and say to His people, "Behold, I will send you grain and new wine and oil, And you will be satisfied by them; I will no longer make you a reproach among the nations.

Joe 2:20 "But I will remove far from you the northern [army], And will drive him away into a barren and desolate land, With his face toward the eastern sea And his back toward the western sea; His stench will come up, And his foul odor will rise, Because he has done monstrous things."

Joe 2:21 Fear not, O land; Be glad and rejoice, For the LORD has done marvelous things!

Joe 2:22 Do not be afraid, you beasts of the field; For the open pastures are springing up, And the tree bears its fruit; The fig tree and the vine yield their strength.

Joe 2:23 Be glad then, you children of Zion, And rejoice in the LORD your God; For He has given you the former rain faithfully, [fn] And He will cause the rain to come down for you-- The former rain, And the latter rain in the first [month].

Joe 2:24 The threshing floors shall be full of wheat, And the vats shall overflow with new wine and oil.

Joe 2:25 "So I will restore to you the years that the swarming locust has eaten, The crawling locust, The consuming locust, And the chewing locust, [fn] My great army which I sent among you.

Joe 2:26 You shall eat in plenty and be satisfied, And praise the name of the LORD your God, Who has dealt wondrously with you; And My people shall never be put to shame.

Joe 2:27 Then you shall know that I [am] in the midst of Israel: I [am] the LORD your God And there is no other. My people shall never be put to shame.
........................................................

and

.........................................................
Joe 3:12 "Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.

Joe 3:13 Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, go down; For the winepress is full, The vats overflow-- For their wickedness [is] great."

Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD [is] near in the valley of decision.

Joe 3:15 The sun and moon will grow dark, And the stars will diminish their brightness.

Joe 3:16 The LORD also will roar from Zion, And utter His voice from Jerusalem; The heavens and earth will shake; But the LORD will be a shelter for His people, And the strength of the children of Israel.

Joe 3:17 "So you shall know that I [am] the LORD your God, Dwelling in Zion My holy mountain. Then Jerusalem shall be holy, And no aliens shall ever pass through her again."

Joe 3:18 And it will come to pass in that day [That] the mountains shall drip with new wine, The hills shall flow with milk, And all the brooks of Judah shall be flooded with water; A fountain shall flow from the house of the LORD And water the Valley of Acacias.

Joe 3:19 "Egypt shall be a desolation, And Edom a desolate wilderness, Because of violence [against] the people of Judah, For they have shed innocent blood in their land.

Joe 3:20 But Judah shall abide forever, And Jerusalem from generation to generation.

Joe 3:21 For I will acquit them of the guilt of bloodshed, whom I had not acquitted; For the LORD dwells in Zion."
.........................................................

Has this event passed?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/20 12:47Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Psa 119:18 Open my eyes, that I may see Wondrous things from Your law.

Psa 119:19 I [am] a stranger in the earth; Do not hide Your commandments from me.

Psa 119:20 My soul breaks with longing For Your judgments at all times.
..........................................................

Does this testimony represent a man who is held "in bondage under the elements of the world"?



“Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:” (Galatians 4:3 KJV)

(Galatians 4:21–25 KJV)
“Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? Gal. 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. Gal. 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Gal. 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. Gal. 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.”

Paul, speaking as a Jew says 'we were children, we were in bondage...
The Old Covenant, says Paul, produces bondage.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/20 13:22Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Has this time which is said to precede the out pouring upon His people happened yet?



Quote:
Has this event passed?



It has not passed but it has arrived.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/20 13:23Profile
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 Re:

philologos wrote:

Quote:
Paul, speaking as a Jew says 'we were children, we were in bondage...



If I may, would you please focus on the Scripture that you have quoted. Specifically Gal 4:23
........................................................
Gal. 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
.......................................................

Paul states that Isaac is "of the freewoman was by promise." And then

..........................................................
Gal 4:26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
.........................................................

So Isaac is of the "Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all." For Paul states that Isaac was treated poorly by those who were born of the flesh. This precept begins in Genesis 3:15. We see that Abel who was a child of God was killed by Cain who became a child of Satan.

...........................................................
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac [was], are children of promise.

Gal 4:29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him [who was born] according to the Spirit, even so [it is] now.
...........................................................

So Paul says that the Galatians have the same standing as Isaac.

Likewise your comment that Paul was speaking of the Jews is not aligned with what Paul is teaching here. For Paul declares with OT Scripture that those who are of the bondwoman are cast out. Isaac was not of this group.

..........................................................
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." [fn]

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.
...........................................................

Was Isaac subject all his life to the "elements of the world"?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/20 14:55Profile
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 Re:

philologos wrote:

Quote:
It has not passed but it has arrived.



This thought is not subject to the Scriptures in Joel. I am sure you are aware that prophesy has both minor and major applications throughout the entirety of Scripture.

Here is an example of what I mean.
........................................................

Isa 7:11 "Ask a sign for yourself from the LORD your God; ask it either in the depth or in the height above."


Isa 7:12 But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD!"


Isa 7:13 Then he said, "Hear now, O house of David! [Is it] a small thing for you to weary men, but will you weary my God also?


Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. [fn]


Isa 7:15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good.


Isa 7:16 For before the Child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.


Isa 7:17 The LORD will bring the king of Assyria upon you and your people and your father's house--days that have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah."
.......................................................

King Ahaz saw this prophesy come true in his own day....

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/20 15:00Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
So Isaac is of the "Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all." For Paul states that Isaac was treated poorly by those who were born of the flesh. This precept begins in Genesis 3:15. We see that Abel who was a child of God was killed by Cain who became a child of Satan.



I don't know that the scripture ever designates Cain as a 'child of Satan'.

“Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. 25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. 26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. 29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.” (Gal 4:21–31 KJV)

Paul is using this story as an allegory. He is seeing spiritual principles at work in it; that is what an allegory is. In an allegory like the Good Shepherd of John 10, Christ is not a door, he is like a door etc. So Isaac is not 'born of the Spirit' but is LIKE someone born of the Spirit in certain ways.

HIs real point is that the Sinai Covenant could not produce 'free born' sons, it only produces 'bondslaves'. Just 'as' Isaac was a 'son of promise' so those born of the Spirit are not qualified by being under the Sinai Covenant but because they too are 'children of promise'. This is part of Paul's theme in Galatians and Romans; it is of faith that it might be of grace.

Neither is Paul saying that Isaac is of 'the Jerusalem which above'. He is comparing the earthly Jerusalem, as it then was, with its dependence upon the sacrifices enjoined by the Sinai Covenant and is saying that those from that system cannot share the inheritance which is by promise.


Quote:
Was Isaac subject all his life to the "elements of the world"?


Isaac was pre-Sinai. This question has no relevance to those before the Sinai Covenant nor to those who are outside that covenant in any way.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/21 6:37Profile
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 Re:

philologos wrote:

Quote:
I don't know that the scripture ever designates Cain as a 'child of Satan'.



We often look for Scriptures which emphatically say that "this is that." We often say that we believe a certain aspect which Scripture states. The Pharasee of Paul's day knew the Scriptures by heart. Yet that knowledge did not save them from being 'self righteous."

There is another aspect of Scripture which says that true belief will show evidence of that belief. Belief will generate action. Thus we are given this testimony of Cain.

..........................................................
1Jo 3:11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another,

1Jo 3:12 not as Cain [who] was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother's righteous.
..........................................................

In the above Scripture we see that "Cain (who) was of the wicked one" murdered his brother. So first we see that Scripture says that Cain was of the wicked one. What evidence are we given that Cain "is of the wicked one?"
This Scripture then gives this precept to the reader. Those whose "works are evil" will have enmity for those whose works are righteous.

Now to further illustrate this precept about Cain let us look to the following Scripture..

..........................................................
Jhn 8:39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

Jhn 8:40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.

Jhn 8:41 You do the deeds of your father." Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father--God."

Jhn 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.

Jhn 8:43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.

Jhn 8:44 You are of [your] father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [resources], for he is a liar and the father of it.
...........................................................

In the above Scripture we see that Jesus repeats this precept to the Pharasees who hated Him. In the last verse Jesus declare that their "father" is "the devil." Jesus states that "the desires of your father you want to do." So again we see that "evidence" of the nature of the "works" points to whom one follows.

And again, we must keep in focus that man is either influenced by the Holy Spirit or the spirit of Satan. The word used in Acts 2 speaking to recieving the "power" of the Holy Spirit is dunamis (sp). In Scripture this word "dunamis" is attributed to the Holy Spirit and Satan.

So I believe Scripture clearly states that Cain's father is the devil.

IN Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/21 12:46Profile
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 Re:

"But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, wh" 1 Pet 2:9–10 NKJV

We need to ask, I think, who Peter (by the Spirit) has in mind when he makes this statement. It seems to me that there can be little doubt that it is the Church that Peter has in mind. Not a smaller grouping of a local assembly but the whole family of God.

We need too to remind ourselves of the passage that the Spirit has brought to Peter's remembrance.

"Now when she had weaned Lo-ruhamah, she conceived and bore a son. 9 Then God said: “Call his name Lo-ammi, For you are not My people, And I will not be your God. 10 “Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, “You are not My people,’ There it shall be said to them, ‘You are sons of the living God.’ 11 Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel Shall be gathered together, And appoint for themselves one head; And they shall come up out of the land, For great will be the day of Jezreel!" Hos 1:8–11 NKJV

I have purposely continued with the quotations so that we can see the direct reference to both the children of Judah and to the children of Israel. This is a theme that is present in several other OT prophets and, as we have seen, it is not the entire nation of Israel or of Judah in mind but the 'remnant' who would be the carriers of the promise and the destiny of God's purposes entrusted to Abraham.

The Hosea passage speaks of an event of the dissolution of the nation of Israel (the northern kingdom) and then, apparently goes on to speak of the re-establishment of a people called that in Jer 31:31ff is called 'the house of Israel'. Surely the Spirit's use of this language in 1 Peter is drawing our attention to a 'new Israel'?


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/21 13:17Profile





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