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PosterThread
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
And since we do not have perfect knowledge in the ways we are to respond to each situation...unintentional actions by us still constitues sin.


Jeff
this is a crucial point to discuss. The OT 'sins of omission' were without excuse because God had revealed his law to them. They had a responsibility to 'know' what God had ordained. This is where the verse... belongs.

"“The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." Deut 29:29 NKJV

This verse is saying that the Old Covenant people had no excuse for 'sins of omission'. I am not sure, as you suggest, that the first 3 chapters of Leviticus are designed to teach us about the 'various aspects of our sin nature'.

Do 'unintentional actions by us constitute sin?'

"Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin." James 4:17 NKJV

Notice how James includes consciousness as a necessary element of sin.

I often say that 'faith is right response to revelation' but there is a corollary to this little definition...'sin is wrong response to revelation'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/15 14:52Profile









 Re:

by philologos on 2010/7/15 2:34:25

Gregg

Quote:
It will be asserted at the onset, that being "born again' or 'born from above' in John 3 is not referring to salvation but rather resurrection. This is why Jesus in Speaking with Nic stated, "You, being a teacher of the Law, do not understand this?"



I cannot accept this notion, the direction is all wrong. Resurrection is 'up from' while Regeneration is 'down from'. You will know, I am sure, that 'you must be born again' would better be translated 'born from above'?
------------------------------------------------------------
yes, it's best tranlated as born 'from above' and not 'again.'

Regeneration and resurrection are both 'down from' which results in an 'up from.' The continual regenerative process -(Are you gritting your teeth yet?)- is changing from glory to glory, even as resurrection of the believer will be this as it's finality: regeneration en toto, when faith is sight.

Right now, all we have is hope of, on which rests our trust in Him to do as He promises. Through this we have His voice and spirit as indicators that He is good for the rest of the promise of the New Covenant.

i'll still assert that Jesus was talking about the resurrection as complete regeneration through the inference He made to Nicodemus.



Through our identification, (as Paul explains in Romans 6,) with Jesus death, burial, and resurrection this very process ensues.

If these two things are different, please explain how.

It is still not understoood why there is this implication that we come to some final point of sanctification here on earth?

Jesus was resurrected for what?

Ultimately it is that He continues to live to plead the blood of His sacrafice over us in intercession. He ever liveth to make intercession. If this is not the case, we are the most wretched of humans.

As he is, so are we in the world.

If He ever liveth to make intercession, what is to be at the foundation of everything we do?

These very things prove that we have not yet seen the completeness of regeneration. Our redemption still draweth nigh, and right now, what we experience is the down-payment.

If this is all there is to the New Covenant compared to what is promised, some of which may be graced to us appropriated through faith(fulness), you need not teach any more Bible.

You think we already have what Jeremiah prophecied? Even Paul in writing Hebrews writes it in the future tense, "behole the days are coming," not "behold the days have come."

Mt. 6:
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Life in Jesus is primarily all about forgiveness, and we need be continually interceeding for others because Jesus has and is and will ever do this for us. Standing in the gap is not just prayer, but reckoning our thoughts, words and deeds in the love of Jesus Christ to others, even as we are loved.



____________________________________________________________

Quote:
Scripture confirm that regeneration is a continual process and not a one time act. Through continual growing confidence in Jesus willing: sacrafice, burial, and resurrection we are made whole, this is called, "being changed from glory to glory."



You are confusing crisis with process.
------------------------------------------------------------
There is no need for any process God works in or through us without a need, without a crisis.

Everything God does in and through us is part of salvation.

Without the death and burial of our selfs, there is no work of His spirit in living in His dynamic resurection power.



____________________________________________________________
Quote:
ow you have put forth the notion that man regenerated no longer has the nature to sin. If this is the case, regenerate man never sins.


How then did Adam and Eve sin?
------------------------------------------------------------
Adam and Eve were created with this ability, and we are both in Adam and Jesus Christ if one is redeemed and being regenerated closer to the ideal of the new creation---> lessening of me and He is increasing.

Jesus is the second Adam, and we still do not see what we shall be...which shows that the New Covenant has not yet come to fulness.



____________________________________________________________
Quote:
There is not one verse that states Jesus removes our sin (nature), nor our sins. The scriptures only tell us that through acting according to what we affirm about our belief in Jesus as both our Master and Annointing, through our own dying to ourselves and walking in His ressurected life, Jesus faith(fulness) keeps our sin(s) is (are) in remission, ( I Jn. 1:7 ).



I fear you have fallen into the trap of taking your definition of 'remission' from modern usage rather than the Bible.

check out the BlueLetterBible on
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G863&t=KJV

Modern usage in terms of 'remission' are of eg. cancer and we say 'he is in remission' meaning it is held in abeyance. This was never the Bible meaning. aphiEmi means to 'send away' not to 'hold in abeyance'.
------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, 'aphiemi' on the NT, and in the OT, in the word "RAChaQ" we see the same thing with definition where it is used:

Psalm 103:
10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

11 For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him.

12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

(How is this different from the New Covenant?)


It's thought you might be reading more into removed/remitted than what it implies.

Yes, it is sent away, however, consider exactly what this entails.

It is sent away, but that hardly means it is non-existent.
Sin is not obliterated. What is sent away can return you know.



First, consider what is said to Cain by God before he sacrafices his brother Abel:

Gen. 4:
6 Yahweh declared to Cain, " Why have you kindled to burn incensed? While pleasing, you are exhalted. If you don't do good, sin is the demon laying across your threshhold: craving unto devouring craving, and (presently) you have dominion.

From the Hebrew, we see that sin is personified as a demon.

Now think about Jesus words:

Luke 11:
4 And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil...
............................................................
Relative but seperated:
(We would not need to pray for deliverance from evil if there were no need, such as no Adamic nature, the old man's propensity to satisfy, as M. Green says, the carton.)
............................................................

...24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

25 And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.

26 Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.


or what about Solomon:


He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.
CHAPTER 26
As snow in summer, and as rain in harvest, so honour is not seemly for a fool.
As the bird by wandering, as the swallow by flying, so the curse causeless shall not come.
~Prov. 25:28-26:2


If we do not continue to live in the faith(fulness) of Jesus through dependence, there are consequences. Walking according to the dictates of our carcass, we are under the curse of the Law. As we walk in the Spirit, there is no condemnation:

Romans 8:
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.



Romans 7 bears out the way of the flesh in the believer.





AGAPEO,
gregg
Acts 20:32

 2010/7/15 17:44









 Re:

by rookie on 2010/7/15 9:05:09

Gregg wrote:

Quote:
It will be asserted at the onset, that being "born again' or 'born from above' in John 3 is not referring to salvation but rather resurrection. This is why Jesus in Speaking with Nic stated, "You, being a teacher of the Law, do not understand this?"


............................................................
Jeff:
I have seen in Scripture that we are saved by His life. Paul writes in Romans 5: That we are reconciled to the Father by the blood of the Son. Much more are we saved from the wrath of the Father by the "life of the Son." Is this the precept you are speaking of?
------------------------------------------------------------
g:
This passage in Romans 5 is thought of in conjunction with Hebrews, I Jn., and a couple of statements elsewhere via Paul.

"the live of the Son" speaking in regards to what He lives for: He ever liveth to make intercession for us. As our faithful High Priest and Advocate, He pleads His own blood in our behalf...cause we are not the pinacle of God's perfection towards us.

One day we shall know even as we are known, yet for now, it's a process of changing from glory to glory
____________________________________________________________



Gregg wrote:

Quote:
Now you have put forth the notion that man regenerated no longer has the nature to sin. If this is the case, regenerate man never sins.


............................................................
Jeff:
Isn't is true that the first 3 chapters of Leviticus teach us about the various aspects of "our sin nature"?

And since we do not have perfect knowledge in the ways we are to respond to each situation...unintentional actions by us still constitues sin.
------------------------------------------------------------

The nature to sin is inherent in us as long as we have the current make and model of flesh we dwell in.

Here, there have been deep studies into just what the sin nature is, and through this iniquity, the resulting flawed actions (sins). Yeah, Leviticus 1-3, as well as Gen. 1-4, I John, and Mt. 5-7 have been primary resources in getting to the bottom of this issue.

We do not ever really know what to do in any situation. For all we know, even if our intentions towards acting seem to have a biblical basis, if it is not done subjecting our heart to Christ, it is sin.

Is it 'good' to serve our own reason(s) over our Master?

We may have the most plausible rationalizations, yet to do something out of our reasoning, we are not following our Master. This is idolatry and we enslave ourselves to belial.

Any action stems from an inside source.

We have access to both the scriptures revealing the will and ways of Jesus from Genesis to Revelation. When we abide in His word, He and the Father dwell within us through His spirit, who teaches us just what we should do in any given situation.

When we walk in the flesh we reap the consequences of the Law, destruction.

Walking in Christ Jesus, we walk in His spirit above, and do not fulfill the condemning curse of the Law.

John 14:
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.



James 1:
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.


Agapeo,
gregg
Acts 20:32

 2010/7/15 18:36
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Regeneration and resurrection are both 'down from' which results in an 'up from.' The continual regenerative process -(Are you gritting your teeth yet?)- is changing from glory to glory, even as resurrection of the believer will be this as it's finality: regeneration en toto, when faith is sight.

Right now, all we have is hope of, on which rests our trust in Him to do as He promises. Through this we have His voice and spirit as indicators that He is good for the rest of the promise of the New Covenant.

i'll still assert that Jesus was talking about the resurrection as complete regeneration through the inference He made to Nicodemus.



So you think resurrection is a process?!?

-------------------------------------------------------

"having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever," 1 Pet 1:23 NKJV

The Greek here, anagegenneœmenoi, is a perf mid part masc plur nom to beget again, cause to be born again. If you understand the Greek tenses you know there is no way that this could be referring to a 'process'.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" Titus 3:5 KJV

Here 'saved' is 3 sing aor act indic to save. This salvation, which was achieved by regeneration etc, is DONE! If the salvation is DONE how can the means of it be a process?!?
-------------------------------------------------------

It is sent away, but that hardly means it is non-existent.
Sin is not obliterated. What is sent away can return you know.

This is a travesty of the Day of Atonement. The sins were 'removed' from God's presence and to suggest they might return is disgraceful. What kind of God do you think we are dealing with?

"Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. 22 The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness." Lev 16:21–22 NKJV

"then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”" Heb 10:17 NKJV

The thought that my sins might be lurking in some forgotten place only to reappear at some future date is horrible and totally unbiblical. Don't you KNOW your sins have been taken away? Don't you KNOW in your spirit?

I really don't think you want to discuss this so this will be my last response to gregg.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2010/7/16 4:30Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. (Hebrews 7:18)

For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit,[a] rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; (Philippians 3:2ff)

It is amazing that Paul took this a step further and counted ALL of his Old Testament accomplishments as dung (rubbish) that he might win Christ. I can't imagine stronger language than that. The contrast is almost shocking.

Paul, who was a Hebrew among Hebrews; a perfect picture of all one could expect to rise to under the Old Covenant had to include himself in this passage... counts it ALL as loss and rubbish!

Consider also this admission:

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh. Fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind and were by nature the children of wrath even as others. The ISV captures that last sentence this way... By nature we were destined for wrath, just like everyone else. The Old Covenant left those that were under it, even it's grandest achievers... at the end of the day... just like everyone else. Think of it... Paul had rose to the top and found himself smack in John 3:3... just like everyone else.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/16 9:13Profile









 Re: Ron

Ron:

I really don't think you want to discuss this so this will be my last response to gregg.
------------------------------------------------------------
Unnerved and trying to put words in my mouth hunh?

Did God tell you to do that, or is this based on your own rationalization?

You draw conclusions that are totally off base from what is stated. You do this with what others write you and you do it with the scriptures.

Do you pick and choose what to respond to, trying to make things go by your misleading? Do you often mis-represent what is stated, adding you own illigitimate conclusions with it?

Your logic seems flawed in more respects than one, so in all these errors observed through your various discourses, it's no wonder you cannot even hold to standard rhetoric.

It seems that you have some ill concieved theology, and base most of what you read in relation to that. Theat's called not listening, and stating only what you want to hear. The only response you give is to somehow steer others in your direction: Ron's rightWrong theology is no standard at all.

It has been seen that you ignore when you take verbs out of tense, yet if it can prove your point, you will stand by it.

(i might be wrong about this, but then again, i might just be right.)

(These beliefs you promote don't deserve to be called doctrine as they ignore the whole counsel of God (who never ever changes). Anybody can pick and choose a few verses here and there and make up something. This is kultic mentality and the way you doeal with others seems to indicate this is your approach as well. As long as everything goes according to your plan, things are fine; but, just dare to say something in contradiction and watch the sparks fly.

This may be your last response to gregg, but why? Do you consider that apple-cart you sell your wares from, (what you think is a tugboat), will get upset? Mayhaps it is a tugboat, and the cut and dried is no longer so cut and dried but cracking due to dry time and the possibility of someone coming along and checking the stability of that little boat?

You say i really do not want to discuss these things so you won't respond? Who really doesn't want to discuss if you are the one unwilling to respond? Who really is the coward that can't deal with these issues?

Surely if this were "The Perfect Sancification of Ron Show," my calls, after the first one or two would neve make it on the air; but this isn't "The Perfect Sancification of Ron Show."

You won't deal with the issues set before you from here because you just don't have what it takes to face that all those ducks you think you have in a row really are not that way at all.

This kind of attitude is one main reason the body of Christ is so splintered into denominational factions. (I promote and believe this, so that which you show from scripture will not even be discussed.

You nitpick about the exactness of the letter and ignore the spirit of the matter. Scriptural standards have to be proven IRL or they are no standard at all.

Oh, enough of this. It's boring.

I may or may not answer you, since you will no longer respond to gregg. Looks like all that can be done mostly is to make sure everything is not so tightly knit as Ron's God-story (aka:theology) will not admit.

Ready for a sidearm curveball?
............................................................
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
............................................................

by philologos on 2010/7/16 0:30:08

g:

Quote:
Regeneration and resurrection are both 'down from' which results in an 'up from.' The continual regenerative process -(Are you gritting your teeth yet?)- is changing from glory to glory, even as resurrection of the believer will be this as it's finality: regeneration en toto, when faith is sight.

Right now, all we have is hope of, on which rests our trust in Him to do as He promises. Through this we have His voice and spirit as indicators that He is good for the rest of the promise of the New Covenant.

i'll still assert that Jesus was talking about the resurrection as complete regeneration through the inference He made to Nicodemus.




So you think resurrection is a process?!?
------------------------------------------------------------
No silly! Resurrection into His image is the completed result of being redeemed. Resurrection is regeneration, but regeneration is not resurrection. Regeneration is the type, and resurrection is the anti-type.
____________________________________________________________
gennao


"having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever," 1 Pet 1:23 NKJV

The Greek here, anagegenneœmenoi, is a perf mid part masc plur nom to beget again, cause to be born again. If you understand the Greek tenses you know there is no way that this could be referring to a 'process'.
------------------------------------------------------------
Yes,The Greek there is anagegenneœmenoi, and Jesus is talking about something different in John 3. (Check the Greek.)

Being born again is not a process. Regeneration is. You cannot equate regeneration with being born (whether it is again or not.)
____________________________________________________________

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" Titus 3:5 KJV

Here 'saved' is 3 sing aor act indic to save. This salvation, which was achieved by regeneration etc, is DONE! If the salvation is DONE how can the means of it be a process?!?
-------------------------------------------------------
Yes you are right about what you are misdirecting attention to.

(Note that regeneration is referred to as present tense continuous in the verb washing, not washed nor will wash. )

____________________________________________________________

It is sent away, but that hardly means it is non-existent.
Sin is not obliterated. What is sent away can return you know.

This is a travesty of the Day of Atonement. The sins were 'removed' from God's presence and to suggest they might return is disgraceful. What kind of God do you think we are dealing with?

"Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. 22 The goat shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness." Lev 16:21–22 NKJV
------------------------------------------------------------
You said yourself the Law was abolished so what are you doing trying to prove something from Leviticus that really do not believe in? (You might as well tear Genesis to Numbers out of your Bible, because that is the Law.)

Perhaps there should have been a bit more clarity than expecting a 'scholar' to do a little footwork and see if these things are not so. (The simple fact that you are not looking any further than what you have rationalized what you think you believe shows that you are not interested in getting a fuller picture than "The Gospel According to Ron."

None-the-less, we'll talk about Azazel in relation to what was stated. The goat is a shadow of what happens to our sin and the entity=daemon carrying the burden of it. Azazel wanders ...and goats do not die like your average domesticated animal, able to survive til they come to the fullest possibe age or are devoured by wild beasts.

I was not saying you former sin comes back. i was just repeating what Jesus said in relation to this, regarding the source carrying with it the potential to sin yourself back into bondage.

So now you go calling Genesis and Jesus words travesty? The sins are removed from GOD'S presence. For us though, Atonement is a covering and not a removal. We do not need to look at them anymore, but most all of us do, and this us where the words of Jesus and Elohim's words in Genesis can come true. (
Now, don't go putting words in my mouth again: i said "can" not "will")

____________________________________________________________

"then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”" Heb 10:17 NKJV
------------------------------------------------------------
"I will" NOT "I already"
____________________________________________________________



The thought that my sins might be lurking in some forgotten place only to reappear at some future date is horrible and totally unbiblical.
------------------------------------------------------------
Not the sins, but the entity that promotes the carrying out of such.

What else is potential for this? Look at Romans 7:

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
____________________________________________________________

Don't you KNOW your sins have been taken away?
------------------------------------------------------------
i know that my sins are remitted. i still do not discount that it is my (potential) nature to sin living in this body of death. We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus... though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. (2 Co 4:13-16).

____________________________________________________________
Don't you KNOW in your spirit?
------------------------------------------------------------
Know in my breath? my pneuma?
My breath (of lives)? my NAShaMaH?

By my very breath in Jesus Christ i live.


I know that while i walk in the Spirit of His Life death and resurrection i walk in renewing life. Whenever i walk according to the old man, my body of death -('s perception, volition and affections,)- i am at emnity with God and do not please Him.



I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom. 7:25-8:4

All of it, every bit of this is about forgiveness, or being turned over to the tormenters.

(It's time to quit talking about gregg! He has done you the same already at the onset of this thread.)


Yur lil' kotz,
gregg
Acts 20:32

p.s. In the days when there is no more night, we might just look back and this will all seem funny.

 2010/7/16 17:25
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

The last response was most unchristlike; it appears as though we are now drifting into waters of ad hominem attacks. Please refrain from this kind of unfruitful communication in the forum. If you cannot continue this discussion without getting emotionally involved, do consider bowing out gracefully.

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2010/7/16 20:54Profile









 Re:

this thread has just been wrong from the onset.

i'm not speaking of the content or opinions of men, but the spirit behind it.

It seems good to me, that this Faith and Gospel we embrace is a simple Faith, a simple Gospel, and yet (well-intentioned) teachers and intellects must take it all to a place where it is indeed inacccessible, yielding it all of very little profit.

what causes me no little grief, is that many know the LETTER of the law, (the theo-intellect) but not the Spirit, which is the Small Still Voice of Jesus, that speaks into a yielded heart.

Furthermore, what causes me no end of grief were two words i read in this thread "Pauline Christianity". i understood that the poster was 'shorthanding' a theo-concept, but Paul was a man, as we are men and/or women. To even breath such, the way God has revealed Messiah in me, is to lift Paul above Jesus?

BANISH THE THOUGHT.


Would to God we become "sealed in the forehead" and embrace a simple Faith, dependent, child-like, using the whole Bible as our Food for soul, seeking the unity of the brethern, rather than this seeming tendency of constructing sheep pens of theology and religion to wall each other off from one another, dividing and devouring, contention and fleshly intellectual ego's flashing like swords, is this what Jesus suffered for?

tell me, is it?

(i desire to start another thread on something that has been bothering me greatly)

 2010/7/17 7:38









 Re: A New Covenant


It strikes me from some of the word expositions encapsulated in New Testament Greek grammar that have appeared in this and other threads, that the writers all said exactly what they meant to say, and they knew it would mean precisely and only what they had written.

Therefore if: 'All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness', (2 Timothy 3:16), and, 'Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation' (2 Peter 1:20) agree, then the battle 'we' all engage, is the renewing of the spirit of our minds, that we may find ourselves in agreement with God.

No doubt we don't 'like' it, when He brings to our attention, those big and little details in which we (in our previous thinking) differ from His mind, but what are we to do, except to entertain the possibility at least, that God is 'right' and 'I' am 'wrong'?


 2010/7/17 8:37
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (Titus 3:5ff)

The New Covenant brings to the table possibilities that never before existed. One of them is the possibility of Regeneration. Our Greek word is παλιγγενεσίας (palingenesia). It comes from the words πάλιν meaning 'again' or 'anew' and then familiarly the Greek word for Genesis. A re-genesis or a new-genesis if you will. The word is only used twice in the New Testament. The first use is very informative:

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:28)

Notice... in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory. This is possibly the best definition of regeneration (παλιγγενεσίας), "...when the Son of Man shall sit in the throne of His glory." When old Adam fell in the Garden it came about because the enemy, Satan, side stepped God's order. He went to the woman in an attempt to deceive them away from their loyalty and obedience to God. Satan is ambitious. He wants to rule and reign. This is important.

Regeneration places God back in His rightful place as reigning King. Before a person is regenerated Sin reigns. (Romans 5:21, 6:12) According to Ephesians 2 Paul tells us this is ALL peoples experience. There is a spirit that is now working in the children of disobedience. We were ALL at one time children of disobedience. Paul places himself in that category. The solution is regeneration. This is a definite experience in which the spirit of disobedience is supplanted with the Holy Spirit of God. The unregenerate walk in the spirit of disobedience fulfilling the desires of the flesh- but they that are regenerate have the ability to walk in the Holy Spirit yielding the fruit of the Spirit. This is more than a mental assent to scriptures- it is a definite experience as miraculous as if Jesus raised Lazarus or walked on water.

For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. (Romans 6:20, 21)

Notice ye 'were' the servants of Sin free from righteousness. What is the effect of New Covenant regeneration? Ye are now servants of righteousness and free from Sin.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/17 9:00Profile





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