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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
The pouring out of the Spirit on men means that they are "filled with the Holy Spirit."



Jeff
There is a fault in your logic here.
Polar bears are white.
These animals are white therefore they must be Polar Bears.

but, of course, they may just be white cats.

It is true that the disciples were filled with the Spirit
It is true that the Holy Spirit was poured out on them.

it is a leap of logic to say therefore

being filled with the Spirit = the Holy Spirit being poured out.

Luke, in the gospel and in the Acts uses 'filled with the Spirit' as a generic term. We then have to read the context to see exactly what he is talking about.

Luke 1:15, 41, 67; Acts 2:4; 4:8, 31; 9:17; 13:9, 52

Sometimes Luke clearly means a 'state' and sometimes an 'event'. Only Luke uses this phrase. (the Eph 5:18 reference is clearly referring to a process rather a single crisis.)

The Scriptures sometimes use language which emphasises the suddenness of the event eg.

poured out: Acts 2:17–18, 33; 10:45
fell upon: Acts 10:44; 11:15
Baptised: Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:33; Acts 1:5; 11:16; 1 Cor 12:13

We must not confuse the event with its consequence.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/14 13:11Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

When does the "another Comforter", come, and where does He come to?

John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

When does the Spirit of Christ come to the believer, "born again by the incorruptable Seed"?

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is the promise of Christ, that He won't leave us alone either.

John 14:18-19 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Without the Spirit of Christ, "we are none of His". Without the Holy Spirit we cannot know the Spirit of Christ that is our new birth.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2010/7/14 13:56Profile
twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2007
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

We often hear the term "poured out" in relationship to the day of pentecost, but I am not so sure that is a really good way to describe the event. The distinction Jesus made was one of "with" and "in". He said that the Holy Spirit, the comforter, was with us but would be in us.

The purpose according to Jesus in Acts 1 was that we would be endued with power. This is reiterated and built upon when Paul describes the power under which both he and those who were ministering alongside him operated under in 1 Cor. chapter 2. Here he also tells us the purpose of the indwelling power and presence of the Holy Spirit is that we might know the things of the Spirit of God, that we might literally have the mind of Christ or to be made partakers of His thoughts, intents, and purposes.

The comforter, literally He who comes alongside and offers assistance or help, parakletos I believe, was sent on the day of pentecost, and He has never left. From Acts 19:2 we see that for any individual person the indwelling presence of the comforter, the baptism of the Holy Spirit if you will, is separate from and subsequent to salvation. These people were believers prior to receiving the Holy Spirit in power.

So He has already come (been poured out as some say),but that does not mean He has come to indwell a particular believer. When He comes to a believer is the point at which they receive Him by faith. It would be silly to think He comes like a little person that actually folds Himself up to sit inside of me, but there is a communion, a fellowship that occurs when I receive Him that was not there prior to being baptized in the Holy Spirit.


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Travis

 2010/7/14 17:32Profile









 Re:

Ps. 27:1

ok.....if this is wrong please be so kind as to correct me.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The thread has been read through from start to the post prior to this one.

There still remain many unanswered questions, and after the Lord dealing with me, there's even more...kinda'. No doubt, even as former Q's remain unanswered, even so, no doubt what follows from this quarter, seveal more Q's will probably remain unanswered as well.

Some things will be gone back over as these are foundational to misunderstanding just what God's salvation entails. Still each issue will find attempt to be covered singularly.

Seeing that post from B.C. on "Who is Israel," this stomach was literally turning, but it was left to pass... though it is the epitome of many of the wrong doctrines and lying theologies in the church. (That post went from assuming one misgnomer to another, considering human opinions and rationalisations to be God's doctrine, with statements that originate and conclude in philosophy of Romanism (aka:Babylon System) propogated through human reason. (oh, it was failed to mention that there were a few scriptures, yet these were mostly to prove the point of the misunderstandings written and seldom as base or conclusion to pertinent issues in the article.)

It is now seen that such things stated are also parcel in the error of thinking that the "Fresh" Covenant is seperate from it's origins. There is no basis for the New Covenant if the Old Covenant is abolished. Without one, the other does not have any foundation, and taking away the foundation, there is nothing for the other to be laid upon: to make it complete.

(Actually, the Old Covenant is referred to as "The Everlasting Covenant" , even as is the New Covenant. See I Chron 16:13-18 for context, and note especially I Chron. 16:17 . If it is abolished, why does God promise otherwise in I Chron. 16, Judges 2:1, and Is. 54:10. These are all OT texts though Mt. 5:17-18 was only stated at first.)

Jesus was sacraficed as part of Old Covenant requirements. In doing this He proved that God's judgement is valid for not obeying His Covenant/ This is His written standard for humans to walk in His: holiness, righteousness, and goodness.

(sideline note re: "...His Covenant..." from above para.-->Jesus was the one who gave the Old Covenant to us, and we can go all the way back to Abraham to see the onset of this by considering the NT as detailed commentary of the Old Covenant. Consider Jesus' response to Abraham's intercession for Lot in Sodom and Gomorrah with one verse in John---> Gen. 18:25 / Jn. 5:22 .

( You know when Paul writes Timothy that first epistle, when he says "all scrpture..." - "is breathed out by God"- looked at in context, he is writing about only the Old Testament...think about that will ya'?)

When there is more time, it will be shown that Jesus -(you say preincarnately?)- gave the Old Covenant, and then it will be asked if Jesus is the same today as yesterday and forever.



Stick with Mr. Tozer on this one thought (because it's true): Without reformation, there will not be revival . Holding on to and promoting things that are not scripturally correct does not draw us closer to God nor His standard, but actually causes us to walk in the wrong direction. Reserving the right to rationalize something through my own sense of reason, other than what God proclaims is called iniquity. ( Ps. 66:18 )
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A beginning note:
Jeff stating that there is hardly a difference at all in the word 'in' and 'on' seems correct. With and in cannot even be compared. With does not mean on. However, to prove this point, are you supposed to believe in or on Jesus Christ to be saved??? ...What is the difference between believing in and believing on?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ron,

If our foundation is not built upon truth, everything that is built upon a false foundation is subject to fall, if not being already shakey. A false foundation is not faith, but it is unbelief.


It seems that from the start the premise behind this thread was based on a misunderstanding. Though not stated in your first post, we did get parry regarding this issue, on this thread, and on "The Sinlessness of Christ" thread.

Here there is doctrinal difference regarding being a "New Creation." It was impressed that this title of the newly redeemed is saying, "a creation that is altogether different."

It will be asserted at the onset, that being "born again' or 'born from above' in John 3 is not referring to salvation but rather resurrection. This is why Jesus in Speaking with Nic stated, "You, being a teacher of the Law, do not understand this?"


Scripture confirm that regeneration is a continual process and not a one time act. Through continual growing confidence in Jesus willing: sacrafice, burial, and resurrection we are made whole, this is called, "being changed from glory to glory." The Word of God sanctifies us , Jn. 17:17, and not we ourselves. According to what we rely on God towards, even so, God manifests His Glory in our lives. Though there may be a starting point, this is something to be continued in and walking in another direction is not continuing in this. (it is a falacy to say that someone was never saved if they do not continue. Unconditional Eternal Security was first Roman Catholic theology propogated by St. Augustine. There are plenty of scriptures that prove that one can walk away from their salvation. ("None shall pluck them out of my hand"-->(see: Jn 10) means that God will not stop acting towards you in relation to Him, whether by blessing or chastisement. It does not mean that we do not walk in other directions.)

Now you have put forth the notion that man regenerated no longer has the nature to sin. If this is the case, regenerate man never sins. Yet, you were pointed to I Jn. 1:8-9, and have not yet admitted that we have both the old man and the new man in us. (The only way we could not have both natures is after our physical resurrection.)

What is the use of Jesus sacrafice and continual cleansing if we are already made perfect?

There are two natures at work. The old man lives according to the desires of our carcass. The new man lives by the faith(fulness) of Jesus Christ.

It was explained that the sin nature is unplugged in God's redeeming us, but that does not mean that we cannot plug it back in. Case in point: read Romans chapter 7.




JESUS DOES NOT REMOVE OUR SIN

Romans 3:10-12


(On the "Who is Israel" thread, of all the wrong doctrine in it, the one thing that stuck this craw, was that false notion that Jesus removes all our sin. )


Let's see here... consider a person who is dying from cancer goes to the doctor for a check-up. The doctor says you are in remission. This does not mean that the cancer does not exist, but it is "as though it does not exist." This does not say that the cancer cannot manifest again. All it says is that at that point in time, from all visible appearances, the cancer seems to be gone.

There is not one verse that states Jesus removes our sin (nature), nor our sins. The scriptures only tell us that through acting according to what we affirm about our belief in Jesus as both our Master and Annointing, through our own dying to ourselves and walking in His ressurected life, Jesus faith(fulness) keeps our sin(s) is (are) in remission, ( I Jn. 1:7 ).

Redemption may be a one time act, but regeneration through remission is not.

Sin was not imparted into Jesus as our substitute. Even so, neither is righteousness of the redeemed imparted. Even as iniquity was laid upon Him, even so our righteousness is imputed, Rom. 3:10.


Consider all this and tell what you think.
This will end for now with a few questions:
(to be added to all the other already unanswered questions)

1. Since the Law and commandments are God's standard for holiness, Rom. 7:12, how can any man preach holiness if the Law is already abolished?

2. Jesus kept not just the letter of the Law, but manifested the very spirit of this. Jesus kept the whole Law and more. We are supposed to conform to the image of Jesus Christ, and the image we have of Jesus is one who disgarded human rationalizations and obeyed God's Law.

We worship God in spirit and in truth. God's testomony (scripture) is truth. Paul, in writing Rom. 12:1 clarifies that spiritual worship is to live in sacraficing our desires to what is holy and acceptable to God. The Law is holy and acceptable to God. Are we any better than Jesus or the Apostles after his resurrection, who kept the Law - except in regards to preisthood, sacrafice, and circumcision after Jesus resurrection? Shouldn't we be following their teachings and examples instead of some post-modern 21st century farsical existential pseudo-faith?

3. Grace flows through the channel of obedience, because faith without works is dead. Grace abounds through faith(fulness) to God our Father. God expects us to be faithful in these little things and He then gives us bigger things to handle. (It is a very small thing to obey the letter of the Law if you are walking in the spirit of it. IF you are not walking in the spirit of it: grace through faith, it becomes something impossible,)

Following Jesus example in obedience to not merely the letter, but the spirit of the Law as well, aren't we being faithful to God's ideal for holiness and not some type of decorum contrived through human rationalization?


Doing something we think is faith yet does not agree with the whole counsel of God is not faith at all. It is unbelief.

Sincerely,
gregg
Acts 20:32

p.s. It just occured to me. There is a time and a season for everything, so nothing occurs to God.



edited: missing thoughts added and grammar errors

 2010/7/14 19:55
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Without the Spirit of Christ, "we are none of His". Without the Holy Spirit we cannot know the Spirit of Christ that is our new birth.


I agree with your post. The inevitable question is can we receive justification 'without the Spirit'?


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/15 6:13Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
We often hear the term "poured out" in relationship to the day of pentecost, but I am not so sure that is a really good way to describe the event.



Travis
However it IS one of the descriptions used of Pentecost and of the Cornelius event.

"“And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. 18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy." Acts 2:17–18 NKJV

"Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear." Acts 2:33 NKJV

... and Peter says plainly... this is that...

"And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also." Acts 10:45 NKJV

the 'outpouring' and the 'indwelling' are not opposite points of view but different ways of describing the same event. However we cannot say, as Jeff has said, that 'outpouring' is another term for 'baptism in Spirit' even though the terms are used to describe the same event.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/15 6:19Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Gregg

Quote:
It will be asserted at the onset, that being "born again' or 'born from above' in John 3 is not referring to salvation but rather resurrection. This is why Jesus in Speaking with Nic stated, "You, being a teacher of the Law, do not understand this?"



I cannot accept this notion, the direction is all wrong. Resurrection is 'up from' while Regeneration is 'down from'. You will know, I am sure, that 'you must be born again' would better be translated 'born from above'?


Quote:
Scripture confirm that regeneration is a continual process and not a one time act. Through continual growing confidence in Jesus willing: sacrafice, burial, and resurrection we are made whole, this is called, "being changed from glory to glory."



You are confusing crisis with process.


Quote:
ow you have put forth the notion that man regenerated no longer has the nature to sin. If this is the case, regenerate man never sins.


How then did Adam and Eve sin?


Quote:
There is not one verse that states Jesus removes our sin (nature), nor our sins. The scriptures only tell us that through acting according to what we affirm about our belief in Jesus as both our Master and Annointing, through our own dying to ourselves and walking in His ressurected life, Jesus faith(fulness) keeps our sin(s) is (are) in remission, ( I Jn. 1:7 ).



I fear you have fallen into the trap of taking your definition of 'remission' from modern usage rather than the Bible.

check out the BlueLetterBible on
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G863&t=KJV

Modern usage in terms of 'remission' are of eg. cancer and we say 'he is in remission' meaning it is held in abeyance. This was never the Bible meaning. aphiEmi means to 'send away' not to 'hold in abeyance'.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/15 6:34Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
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 Re:

1 Corinthians 1:28-31 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

These are the things we are not; We are not wise in our own comings and goings and circumstances and situations. We are not justified to righteousness by our own doings. We are not the Sanctifier to make us Holy. We cannot redeem ourselves.

That is why God has Justified us unto righteousness by the making of His Son in us our righteousness and justification.

"Christ in you the Hope of Glory"

Christ is the Wise One, the Holy Spirit brings forth this wisdom by the teaching and revelation and wisdom of Christ and what He says for our upbuilding and sanctification, His Body the Church.

Without Christ, we cannot be justified, wise, sanctified or redeemed.

The instant God Gives Birth to His born again son's, by the Incorruptable Seed, in us, we become all these things by the Christ that is now our Spirit, life and all and in all.

This New creation life in Christ Jesus, us becoming by our on going Sanctifier and Teacher, the Holy Spirit, we are the son's of God, we are becoming the son's of God and we will be the son's of God. Full total and complete on resurrection morning but still learning throughout all eternity by the Holy Spirit who is in us forever, who God and His Christ are, who make their abode with us.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2010/7/15 12:26Profile
Christinyou
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 Re:

Where does the Holy Spirit work, in our sprit, or in our soul, (mind, will and emotions)?

He does not work in our Spirit, that was finished on the Cross, "It is finished". For we now have the Spirit of Christ, the old man out the new man, (Last Adam) in us.

The Holy Spirit is the Sanctifier of our soul.

The Spirit of Christ is our new birth, a new creature, our new life, fully Justified and Sanctified.


Our Soul-Mind is learning by the renewing of our minds, which now is the Mind of Christ and His Spirit. This is our Teachers total and complete work in the believer, to be sanctified in Christ.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

This is our ongoing process now and throughout all eternity.

This is complete, "finished".

Colossians 1:26-29 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2010/7/15 12:49Profile
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 Re:

Gregg wrote:

Quote:
It will be asserted at the onset, that being "born again' or 'born from above' in John 3 is not referring to salvation but rather resurrection. This is why Jesus in Speaking with Nic stated, "You, being a teacher of the Law, do not understand this?"



I have seen in Scripture that we are saved by His life. Paul writes in Romans 5: That we are reconciled to the Father by the blood of the Son. Much more are we saved from the wrath of the Father by the "life of the Son." Is this the precept you are speaking of?


Gregg wrote:

Quote:
Now you have put forth the notion that man regenerated no longer has the nature to sin. If this is the case, regenerate man never sins.



Isn't is true that the first 3 chapters of Leviticus teach us about the various aspects of "our sin nature"?

And since we do not have perfect knowledge in the ways we are to respond to each situation...unintentional actions by us still constitues sin.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/15 13:05Profile





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