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twayneb
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Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The question is 'does God justify the ungodly or does God justify the righteous?'



I am not sure what point you are trying to make I guess. ???


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Travis

 2010/7/10 16:38Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
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Ca.

 Re:

If God did not justify the ungodly, there would be none righteous. All are ungodly and fall short. Oh, how great a salvation.


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Phillip

 2010/7/10 20:34Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Quote:
t's justification by faith that is our peace with God, and which enables us to be "found of Him in peace" when He appears.



and then.........

Quote:
But there must be a continuing in that standing, and a moving onward, such that it enables us to bring forth the fruit in our lives that God is hungry for: specifically love, which to walk in is to walk in a holiness that leaves us unblameable in the day of judgment. (See also 1 Jn. 4.17).



Your words bring to this Scripture......

.......................................................................................................................
Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
.....................................................................................................................

We have been reconciled to the Father through the blood of Christ. And then we shall be saved from God's wrath through Him.

...................................................................................................................
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
.................................................................................................................

Since we now have been given the Holy Spirit, we shall realize true salvation as His life is imparted into us who continue to walk with Him. These who walk with Him can expect to be transformed into the image of His Son.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/10 20:54Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor [to bring us] to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

...................................................................................................................

Paul states that "before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law..."

Who is "we" in this Scripture?

Secondly "we" "were kept under guard by the law" How does the law guard us before a God given faith is generated in us?

Look to the writer of Psalm 119 for the answers....

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/10 21:13Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3706
Ca.

 Re:

Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Galatians 3:23
Verse 23. But before faith came. That is, the system of salvation by faith in the Lord Jesus. Faith here denotes the Christian religion, because faith is its distinguishing characteristic.
We were kept under the law. We, who were sinners; we, who have violated the law. It is a general truth, that before the gospel was introduced, men were under the condemning sentence of the law.

Shut up unto the faith. Enclosed by the law with reference to the full and glorious revelation of a system of salvation by faith. The design and tendency of the law was to shut us up to that as the only method of salvation. All other means failed. The law condemned every other mode, and the law condemned all who attempted to be justified in any other way. Man, therefore, was shut up to that as his last hope; and could look only to that for any possible prospect of salvation. The word which in this verse is rendered "were kept," ejrouroumeqa, usually means to guard or watch, as in a castle, or as prisoners are guarded; and though the word should not be pressed too far in the interpretation, yet it implies that there was a rigid scrutiny observed; that the law guarded: them; that there was no way of escape; and that they were shut up, as prisoners under sentence of death, to the only hope, which was that of pardon. End:

Christ Jesus and His Cross is our pardon, by faith.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

By His Faith through His mind and His spirit, which are now mine, by God's declaration, that is in me, my Faith now directed by the Holy Spirit saves me.

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, (justification by faith) and sanctification, (Holy Spirit revelation by the renewing of our minds, which, "we have the mind of Christ in us), and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2010/7/10 23:56Profile
rookie
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 Re:

Albert Barnes wrote:

Quote:
The word which in this verse is rendered "were kept," ejrouroumeqa, usually means to guard or watch, as in a castle, or as prisoners are guarded; and though the word should not be pressed too far in the interpretation, yet it implies that there was a rigid scrutiny observed; that the law guarded: them; that there was no way of escape; and that they were shut up, as prisoners under sentence of death, to the only hope, which was that of pardon. End:




Yet we have this testimony of a man who shared his God generated faith with us.

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Psa 119:44 So shall I keep Your law continually, Forever and ever.

Psa 119:45 And I will walk at liberty, For I seek Your precepts.
.......................................................................................................................

This man speaks of liberty and the knowing that he is right with God. We know that this Scripture has been given to us so that we might learn from his testimony.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/11 9:30Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
This is true, and we move off the foundation of justification by faith to our peril. But let me call attention to a danger here. It's true that "we are not right with God because of sanctification," as you said. But if sanctification is not wrought in our lives, we will not be without blame in the day of Christ.


I am a holiness preacher and I preach it constantly but Wesley once said something like 'we should preach justification 20 times for each time we preach sanctification'. I think I understand what he meant.

Here is one of my favourite OT passages which makes my point...

"“And when I passed by you and saw you struggling in your own blood, I said to you in your blood, “Live!’ Yes, I said to you in your blood, ‘Live!’ 7 I made you thrive like a plant in the field; and you grew, matured, and became very beautiful. Your breasts were formed, your hair grew, but you were naked and bare. 8 “When I passed by you again and looked upon you, indeed your time was the time of love; so I spread My wing over you and covered your nakedness. Yes, I swore an oath to you and entered into a covenant with you, and you became Mine,” says the Lord GOD. 9 “Then I washed you in water; yes, I thoroughly washed off your blood, and I anointed you with oil. 10 I clothed you in embroidered cloth and gave you sandals of badger skin; I clothed you with fine linen and covered you with silk. 11 I adorned you with ornaments, put bracelets on your wrists, and a chain on your neck. 12 And I put a jewel in your nose, earrings in your ears, and a beautiful crown on your head. 13 Thus you were adorned with gold and silver, and your clothing was of fine linen, silk, and embroidered cloth. You ate pastry of fine flour, honey, and oil. You were exceedingly beautiful, and succeeded to royalty. 14 Your fame went out among the nations because of your beauty, for it was perfect through My splendor which I had bestowed on you,” says the Lord GOD." Ezek 16:6–14 NKJV

Notice where the cleansing comes in v9.
he embraced this founding, spread his garment over her, entered into covenant with here.... then I washed you in water; yes, I thoroughly washed off your blood, and I anointed you with oil.


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/11 16:46Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: “You are His disciple, but we are Moses’ disciples."

"“The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, 16 according to all you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, “Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’ 17 “And the LORD said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. 18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him." Deut 18:15–19 NKJV

This prophecy from Moses was clearly understood by the early Christians to be fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ.

"For Moses truly said to the fathers, “The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’" Acts 3:22–23 NKJV

"“This is that Moses who said to the children of Israel, ‘The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear.’" Acts 7:37 NKJV

In what sense is Christ 'like me' ie like Moses? This would make a valuable study. From the onset there are powerful parallels between Moses and Christ eg. Both were targeted for destruction at birth… and many more but it is not in personal history parallels that the Scriptures have in mind. The great parallel is that they were both mediators of covenants. The Scriptures frequently refer to the law as 'Moses' Luke 24:27. The Jews of Jesus' day saw the implications very clearly;

"Then they said to him again, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?” 27 He answered them, “I told you already, and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you also want to become His disciples?” 28 Then they reviled him and said, “You are His disciple, but we are Moses’ disciples." John 9:26–28 NKJV

The book of Hebrews declares very plainly that the New Covenant has a better mediator…

"But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises." Heb 8:6 NKJV

"And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance." Heb 9:15 NKJV

Throughout the epistle to the Hebrews the covenants are contrasted and the New Covenant declared to be the 'better covenant'. These covenants are mutually exclusive, they cannot co-exist peacefully, hence Paul's startling words in Galatians…

"which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all. 27 For it is written: “Rejoice, O barren, You who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband.” 28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.” 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free." Gal 4:24–31 NKJV

Paul declares here his recognition of 'two covenants' and says that the Sinai covenant is an allegory of Hagar; it produces bond-slaves. He goes on to show that there must be zero-tolerance in this matter; “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”

Jesus is 'like' Moses in that he is the mediator of a covenant but he is a better mediator of a better covenant and that those who reject that mediatorship must pay the ultimate price


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Ron Bailey

 2010/7/13 4:47Profile
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Joined: 2003/6/3
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 Re:

Ron wrote:

Quote:
Paul declares here his recognition of 'two covenants' and says that the Sinai covenant is an allegory of Hagar; it produces bond-slaves. He goes on to show that there must be zero-tolerance in this matter; “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”



The allegory of Hagar points to men striving in their carnal flesh, to declare righteousness of there own imaginations. Just like in the book of Galatians, the flesh wars against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh. We see that this precept is clearly distinguished when the writer of Hebrew says this in the section of Scripture you have brought before us.

.......................................................................................................................
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
...................................................................................................................

The writer says that "we" are "as Isaac was," "children of promise" And we know that those who are born of God will always be persecuted by those who reject God. This persecution began in Genesis 3:15 when God declared that there would be hatred between Satan and the Woman, and between his seed and the Seed of the woman. The first offspring of Adam give us a clear picture of what God meant. Cane slew Abel.

If one looks to the testimony of Psalm 119 on will find that this man satisfied the law of God through the Holy Spirit. The law led him to Christ.

Christ said to His disciples:
...........................................................................................................
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'

Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
.............................................................................................................

Those who 'practice lawlessness" will not be known by the Lord.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2010/7/13 7:30Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Throughout the epistle to the Hebrews the covenants are contrasted and the New Covenant declared to be the 'better covenant'. These covenants are mutually exclusive, they cannot co-exist peacefully, hence Paul's startling words in Galatians...



We have an equally important problem also.

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; (I Corinthians 10:3ff)

Israel was identified with Moses through this baptism unto Moses. As great as Moses was, it seems to me that he himself was in 'Adam'. So one under the Old Covenant could only ever be identified with one that was in Adam.

What about those under the New Covenant? What is their experience in baptism?

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (I Corinthians 12:12ff)

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (Romans 6:3)

This is the great difference between the Old and New Covenant that they prior to Pentecost could not experience. No one was dead to Sin under the Old Covenant.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.(Romans 8:3ff)


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Robert Wurtz II

 2010/7/13 8:10Profile





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