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Excellent thoughts Chris.
Just some random thoughts on this subject:
Loudness - Sometimes CCM is objected to because it is so loud. It should be noted though, that when the Scriptures exhort us to "make a joyful noise unto the Lord" that the Hebrew word behind "noise" indicates it was ear-splitting loud.
Instruments - The Jews used the same musical instruments for worship that their pagan neighbors used in their worship.
Style - Because of the lack of audio from 2,000 years ago, it is impossible to know for certain what Jewish music sounded like. But from the Scriptures when you see them talk about music, sometimes it talks about a certain style, and sometimes the translations will attempt to describe as best as the scholars know, the style of the music. Some of that music was very calm and meditative, other times, it was very fast beat. My guess, aside from electric amplification, some of it would've sounded very "rockish" at times.
My guess, some of it wouldn't have been a very simple sound, or southern gospel in nature.
| 2010/6/25 12:17||Profile|
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I thoroughly enjoyed reading your thoughtful post. Thank you!
For those who are interested, there is a new book on this topic: "Why Johnny Can't Sing Hymns" by T. David Gordon.
With care in Christ...
| 2010/6/25 12:23||Profile|
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Chris said some Christian bands proclaim that their intent is to show the world that Christians can have fun too... and that Christian music can be as good as the worlds.
Uhmmm... is that supposed to be our message? Really?
Yea, that type of thing has always bothered me in Christain music.
| 2010/6/25 12:30|
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Perhaps a brief history of rock music is in order? The information I am about to share is not a copy/paste job. I happen to have had a quite a few birthday celebrations and can remember. What I will write is based on memory - I witnessed these things.
Elvis Presley is considered the king of rock. It used to be called "Rock 'n Roll". Later the term was shortened to 'rock'.
Elvis was raised in the Pentecostal church and sang there. Obviously, a gifted singer, he took his talent into the secular arena. Finding a savvy manager his skills as an entertainer became a big business. Elvis started singing during the 1950s.
Elvis, sometimes called 'Elvis the pelvis', used vulgar movements with his pelvis while performing. It was considered by the secular world too vulgar to show on TV.
The term "Rock 'n Roll" is the term borrowed from the ghetto describing the sexual act.
The sixties came along and with it four mop headed guys from the British Isles invaded our land with their music. At the same time opposition to the VietNam war was rising. You had rebellion rise on two fronts: rebellion against government and rebellion against established authority with included parents, church, schools and civil governments. There were sit-ins staged by students in colleges in protest of whatever they deemed needed fixing. (The result has been a dumbing down of curriculum where a person now can graduate with little or no evidence of having been educated.)
Until Woodstock or the Beatles or Elvis Presley, young people engaged in pre-marital sex but it was something done in private, something which people were ashamed about, something discussed in whispers. (Homosexuality was only talked about by the adults out of the hearing of their children.)It was not overt nor talked about openly without any shame. The 1960s rebellion by the youth, egged on by the performers changed all this.
The thing that helped promote this change was the music, with Elvis leading the way. This opened the floodgates of hell where Satan took full control of the music industry.
Christians are by nature a musical people - they love to sing. Elvis sang and recorded hymns - beautiful singing. Since he sang these anointed songs, he disarmed Christians' reluctance to love songs (as we used to call it) that promoted kissing, etc. He sang these hymns and "now I would like to hear these other songs." "Well, I really do not care for it, but ...." and the Devil got his foot in the door.
After the 60s, musicians became more brazen. There was money to be made. The beat, the sound became more angry, less melodious. The competition became fierce so each tried to outdo the other and to do so the music became more radical.
Today, these performers are the purveyors of every sin imaginable. These musicians look angry, have a black look about themselves. The light of the world is not shining through them because Matthew 6:23 is their reality: 23 "But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!"
The argument is made that there are a lot of godly youth involved in this music. I do not believe it although there may be a few exceptions, but not as a rule. And why do I say this? I have heard what goes on in the privacy of too many people's lives, including singers of religious music, away from the seeing eyes of others. These people do fornicate, have abortions or are having babies. Since this wonder singer/performer had a baby, single parenthood must not be so bad after all, is what the young girls are being taught to think. (It used to be considered a shame for a single woman to have a baby. But it has now become commonplace - even in the church.)
I am 63 years old or young; God had me minister at a Crises Pregnancy Center for 15 years. I loved the work and believed I would be there until I would be too old and decrepit to work. But God had other plans: one day he told me my time is up there. I laid out the fleece to determine whether what I perceived was God speaking or not. The answer came back a resounding "YES!" I told the LORD that if he is telling me to leave, he will make it so that I will have no calls nor clients for four weeks. This is a tough one, I admit. But all things being in God's control, it is not hard. And I had no calls nor clients for four weeks.
Brothers, this explains the basis of my concern for the evils of rock music, or more aptly called 'fornication' music. I have witnessed firsthand the devastating effects of this sin and it grieves me to no end to see Christians embrace it and defend it.
If you still think I am being judgemental, I suggest you do as Neil suggested, "get in to your closet and pray."
| 2010/6/25 12:46||Profile|
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TV preachers and Wall Street bankers have ripped off more people than anyone can ever imagine...
...hey, they all wear suit and ties!
Therefore... suit and ties are evil.
Same kind of reasoning, Ginny.
If you really want to get to the roots of rock music and where it came from... it came from your state, Mississippi. It derived from the blues, which was a hybred of the old slave work songs and spirituals. When blues was first being recorded, and even into the 1950's it was called "race music".
Most good white folks would ban their children from listening to that "n----r music". If you watch or listen to some of the preachers from the 1950 condemning rock music they would include in their condemnations racist statements.
I read a book quite awhile ago (cant remember the name or the author) that was condemning secular AND Christian rock. In it the author made the statement "Judge for yourself which music God loves and is honored by... music created by the intellectual minds of the European composers, or music brought to America on slave ships?"
Unbelievable... and this book was written around 1990.
Underneath this discussion, buried under by a lot of top soil... is a racist element. But we don't want to admit that.
| 2010/6/25 12:49|
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You said, "There is nothing like the "music topic" to bring out igorance, judgementalism and hot air! ...well, maybe the KJV topic."
How true and how sad! The question we must ask is
"Can God be glorified in this?"
Back to the origial post: When I'm not listening to preaching or talk radio: I like to listen to:
Broken Vessels www.brokenvessels.com
Samuel David Lee www.myspace.com/samueldavidlee
| 2010/6/25 13:12||Profile|
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Yes Krispy CORRELATION IS NOT CAUSALITY. Underneath this discussion, buried under by a lot of top soil... is a racist element.
CORRELATION (suits and ties accompany ripping off people OR an underlying race element accompanies warnings about CCM, accompanies SOME thinking that condemns christian rock ) IS NOT CAUSALITY. You can't really be offering poor reasoning in a post that wants to complain about that.
The Pride of race is like any/every one of the prides of life, hated by God among other things. Sin and old man thinking can enter into any conversation including those of preachers and book authors. Alert to that we can keep it out of this discussion and deal with it as the sin it is. Its good/helpful to point that out.
When it comes to correlation verses causality, one real question Krispy is:
Just what IS the relationship between the BAD TREE and the bad fruit, correlation or causality?
| 2010/6/25 14:54||Profile|
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Uhmm... where I come from, we speak English. If you could translate all that for me maybe I could figure out what your talking about. I don't even understand your question!
| 2010/6/25 16:16|
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I am surprised with your response.
I wish you could refute my points rather then go off on a rabbit trail!
It is true that rock'n roll music came from Mississippi - it was Tupelo, in fact, a city I am well familiar with - they have a very nice shopping mall- Barnes Crossing there, several miles north of downtown. Elvis Presley was from Tupelo.
Therefore... suit and ties are evil
Never did ties and suit sanctify one nor does it make one wicked, either.
After I posted my memory went back to this era in which ties and coats were worn by performers, secular and Christian alike! It did not make one more righteous then another; the Beatles used to wear suits and ties.
There were other professional singers who marketed music for both the secular and Gospel markets. I do not know where they started. They may have begun in the secular and seeing a chance to make money in the Christian market, crossed over and recorded albums for them. A few singers come to mind: Tennessee Ernie Ford, Kitty Wells, Louvin Brothers...and they dressed in suits and ties if they were male. Oddly enough, they did not yet, have that black look in their faces/bodies.
(This black look is nothing racist!!! I had a black client who had this look really bad. She was very black in skin color, but she had this black look. Skin color had nothing to do with it. She was a heavy drug abuser, addict - she told me. Actually, when I first saw her - from a distance, my initial reaction was "what is that black thing!" The look was so pronounced. If you do not understand what I am saying, please be so kind and not call me a racist. White people have this black look as well. It is not restricted to people of color!! It is an example of Matthew 6:23 in the flesh.)
buried under by a lot of top soil... is a racist element.
Steve, this is a low blow coming from you - I thought better things then this from you! You know me better then that - to make this a racist issue! Why can you not keep this discussion on the subject instead of inserting a racist element? And perhaps you do not know that I love Negro Spirituals? I also love Ba'er Rabbit stories by Uncle Remus. Does this make me a racist?
Krispy, look back on the history of rock'n roll - it encouraged immorality by playing around with sin. I remember the song "What Kind of deal is this?" Did this song encourage high moral standards? No.
Brother, I wish you would read the posts on this thread and seriously reconsider before you come back and suggest this idea is rooted in racism.
| 2010/6/25 16:17||Profile|
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I did not respond because there is not anything in what you have written that is worth me responding to. It's the same old stuff people have been throwing out there for half a century. So what??
Henry Ford hated Jews, read Mein Kompf, wrote a book called The International Jew... and at one time had a personal face to face meeting with Adolf Hitler... who praised Ford for his book.
That doesn't stop any one from driving a car.
By the way, since I am on the subject... I did not accuse YOU of being a racist. I'm saying that at the root, when the whole thing began, a lot of the preaching against rock music was racially motivated. That is a fact.
Why are you being so defensive?
Fact is... many people listen to Christian rock/rap/ whatever and are living thier life for Christ and growing in grace. Leave them alone.
I heard someone compare like this... rock music is a lot like I was... lost and wretched, and sometimes God takes it and cleans it up and breathes new life into it.... just like He does people like me.
And along come those who can't understand it (reminds me of the people who thought the gentiles shouldn't eat certain meats) and call it evil.
It's all pride. People just need to get over themselves.
| 2010/6/25 17:16|