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 Re:

OK but you said earlier that it is men and women to blame which does not sound like an acknowledgement that there is a problem in condeming the half dressed women without looking at the reason for their behaviour and an acknowledgement that it is men who have the power in any society - and this is scriptural and the result of the fall. Why do Christian men accept this status quo without question or support of even their female brethren who are still subject to mistreatment by males even by the pastor on the video who is condeming females too and not addressing the root problem?

 2010/5/31 4:05
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

I am blaming both man and woman in this because both parties are responsible, This again is a useless argument in the Christian realm because any Spirit filled male that is truly following after Christ won't be advocating immodesty and UNequality of woman and a Woman that is Spirit filled won't care what a male thinks of them because they aren't of this world anymore nor love the things of this world. Both are responsible it is going to take both parties acknowledging their folly and accept their sin, confess their sin, and Repent of their sin in order for this to see any results. When I do a message about modesty I get both sides of the coin a assure you, Sis. Men and Women are equally depraved spiritually and ALL need Jesus on the day of Judgment and in their everyday life.

*edit added Un to equality forgot it the first time :)*


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Matthew Guldner

 2010/5/31 4:11Profile









 Re:

I see this as a symptom of the low spiritual state of the church. Whenever there was true revival, there was a corresponding move to correct inequality of race or economic stature in the case of slavery. The inequality of women has never been addressed as a problem in the church but perhaps this will be so if men do bow down to God and allow Him to bring another revial.

In Germany the society is much more egalitarian than the US or UK and I see this as the reason why you do not see young girls or indeed young men in the streets showing off ther wares (I suspect that homosexuals display such behaviour). I don`t know whether this is a traditional thing or the reasult of the effort made after WW2 to purge discrimination.

It is a mistake to think that the church is not affected by this however. It has been mentioned on this thread about how Christian men are being hypercritical on this matter, preaching modesty and looking at immodest women even in the presence of their own women.

I must say I am not surprised at the lack of responses on this thread and the lack of condemnation towards that pastor who is not calling men to repent.

 2010/5/31 4:35
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

I agree wholeheartily. In all reality its a very vicious cycle to look at culturally. Women want a mate, find that they can attract a mate by lowering their standard of dress but by doing so lower their standard of mate they attract, Men on the other side of the coin are looking for a mate and see all these beautiful females while seemingly ignoring any that have modesty for a good looking girl rather than a girl that has personality or morals. I really hate blaming society because our society is a corrupt one, As Christians we aren't to conform to the pattern of this world any longer. I would say that ALL Christians male and female need to set a higher standard for themselves. And I definitely see where you are coming from and I again acknowledge this deficeincy of the Male side of the church.


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Matthew Guldner

 2010/5/31 4:43Profile
EverestoSama
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Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Quote:
It is a mistake to think that the church is not affected by this however. It has been mentioned on this thread about how Christian men are being hypercritical on this matter, preaching modesty and looking at immodest women even in the presence of their own women.



With this statement you're confirming exactly what we're trying to say. Women dressed immodestly are like a magnet for men's eyes. Even if they're completely against it, just the fact that women will dress this way is a trap for men. When it comes to the world you can't help it. When it comes to the church though, we have a problem. As I said before, unless you're a man it's going to be difficult to explain how this works, but lets try this. Lets say that you decided to go on a fast for 21 days or something like that. You're fasting to get closer to God and to learn to hear His voice. You're very serious about this. You tell your family that this is what you're doing. About 7 days in (and you're gonna be really hungry at this point) your brother orders a pizza, and pizza is your favorite food. Ok, whatever. But then your brother begins to eat it in front of you, and also begins to exclaim how fantastic the pizza is. Then he asks if you want any. You refuse. He continues to eat the pizza and exclaim how just completely delicious is is. You decide it's best to leave. It doesn't stop there though. Your brother decides to follow you into another room with the pizza in hand. He continues to just sing the praises of said pizza the whole way. When you sit down in the other room, he sits next to you. He puts the pizza right in front of your nose and says, "Do you smell that? You have no idea how good this pizza is. If you want, I'm going to leave the pizza here, and you can have some if you wish." Now, you have three choices. You can eat the pizza, you can sit there in torment trying to resist the urge to eat the pizza, or you can leave the room with your brother and let the pizza sit. The best choice is to run, BUT, had you been honest with your brother and said, "Look man, I'm fasting, and that's not good for me right now, and because I'm so hungry it's really hard to resist even though I desire in my heart not to. Could you just help me out and not tempt me in this fashion?" Maybe your brother was completely ignorant of your condition, but even if not, it would be best to avoid the situation all together.

The parallel I just tried to give was honestly the best way I could think of to explain what goes on inside of most men. And the only thing I'm referring to is just giving into lust. If anyone has ever fasted for an extended period of time they might get an idea of the picture I'm trying to paint of what's going on inside.

I didn't watch the preacher from the video, so I'm not sure what exactly he went on about our what spirit he delivered his message in, but nevertheless, we're not trying to point fingers here.

As I explained in my previous post, for a man the best option is to run, but I think many man are tired of running and fighting a battle that they're only playing 50% of a part in, especially when it's in the church. Now when they're in the world, these women and men are only doing what's natural for worldly people to do, and that's act like sinners. This post was not addressed to them though. This initial post was perhaps a plea from an honest man for women to understand what was happening.

We can continue to play this blame game of men vs women in society, and who took the first shot, and where the blame really lies, and sooner or later we can take it all the way back to the Garden of Eden, and then depending on what side you're on people will be blaming Adam or Eve. All this fault finding serves no purpose. We've all sinned, and what I believe the poster was doing was asking for women's assistance in helping purge out this problem. Blame is shared, no matter what side threw the first stone.

 2010/5/31 4:59Profile









 Re:

All I can respond with is that it is a failing to not see the wood for looking at the trees. Men might get a better hearing if they were not trying to put all of the blame on women by refusing to address their part in it or rather the part of the damage done in society. Women still feel like second class citizens in the church - in fact sometimes it is worse than the world outside - Eve and all that.

 2010/5/31 5:23
mguldner
Member



Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860
Kansas

 Re:

So would the message of the preacher on that message would have been received better if He was a woman rather being a man? I am not saying this for argument but for understanding, Should that preacher only speak on how corrupt man is and why they are to blame since he is a man or should the message have been equally yoked with blame for why the things in the church are the way they are?

I believe that sometimes the play of society shows that men are strong, which I find the exact opposite to be true, Men are very weak creatures, and probably should be regarded as such even Christian men. I hold this to be true that our standard of living even in the Christian realm is dropping. This again I will say is a senseless argument because Man can say I stumble and fall because of the way you dress and a Woman can say I dress this way because society and even Christian men thrust this upon me to be socially accepting. Either way its a rather poor excuse and I assure you, you will sound rather silly before a HOLY and JUST God saying Well Those Rotten Women dressed terribly or a woman saying You don't understand God I was a second class citizen on earth and so in order to be noticed or accepted I HAD to dress that way.

God gives us a Standard for US ALL, Its our job to strive after that standard and care very little what others think or react or even how they treat us. As I said earlier Women Dress Purely, MEN KEEP Your EYES PURE. We can go round and round with this argument of men in the church pushing stuff on woman in society and Church and men being the victim of a immodest woman that seeks attention. The issue of Equality of Woman I believe would make a great new thread, As for Dress and Modesty NEITHER SIDE has an Excuse for their action and Again I will accept FULL responsiblity for my action and treat them accordingly through repentance.


_________________
Matthew Guldner

 2010/5/31 5:41Profile
EverestoSama
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Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Edit: mguldner said it much better than I could.

 2010/5/31 5:42Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7474
Mississippi

 Re:

Brenda,

I wish you would quit blaming the men for their 'weakness' in this area. Your dislike for males is coming on strong. Methinks your attitude is not Godlike at all. The abuse you allegedly suffered at the hand of males has poisoned your attitude and needs to be left at the cross for cleansing.

The thread here is about modesty and now your posts are subverting it by splitting hairs over other male/female issues.

Men have a legitimate complaint. And it is not only them who hate immodesty godly females do it too. Then there are the lesbians who are also attracted to the female body for lustful purposes...immodesty effects all regardless who does it.


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2010/5/31 8:04Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7474
Mississippi

 Re:

Males, I highly respect your bravery in speaking out on this issue, knowing you will risk the wrath of some.

God bless you!
ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2010/5/31 8:07Profile





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