SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Types

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 Next Page )
PosterThread
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

I am sorry for not clearly writing my thougths. I quoted Genesis 6:3 in terms of showing that God's Spirit strives with men's spirit though they are wicked and enemies of
God. I believe this verse refers to God giving man no excuse. "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because [b]what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.[/b]...so that they are without excuse, because although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were they thankful..." Romans 1:18-21 I believe one might apply this to what Jesus said, "Many are called but few are chosen."

In terms of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and James 4:5, the New Testament gives us the doctrine of the indwelling Spirit. The Old Testament gives us the evidence of the work of God not seen. "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1 As you mentioned the idea of faith being the plausible explaination for understanding Scripture in the OT saints, I believe the OT gives the evidence of God promising to be their God. What comes with God promising to be their God? What comes from God telling us we are His child? Our hearts cry out Abba Father. Man can not muster up this feeling, it is the work of God. The fruits of our relationship with our Savior is the substance for which we begin to hope for. It is the substance that drives our lifes. The yoke of Christ will show evidence outwardly of what God had done inwardly in the spirit of a disciple.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/2/6 11:30Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
As Ravenhill preaches, "What are we save from. From hell? From lying? From stealing? What are we saved from?????


To finish the quote "...[i]an ingrown toenail?[/i]" Leonard Ravenhill

Funny, I had just had this quote running through my head not 20 minutes ago...


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/2/6 16:35Profile
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37455
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
Funny, I had just had this quote running through my head not 20 minutes ago...


yea its actually been in my mind in the last few days.. :-P


_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/2/6 19:08Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Jeff:

We briefly discussed the question of the Holy Spirit's operation in the Old Testament.

I found a link that seems rather helpful.
[url=http://www.bible.org/docs/qa/qa.asp?StudyID=5]Bible.org FAQ[/url]


_________________
Sam

 2004/2/9 10:40Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Hi agent 001'

I read your link. The work of the Spirit is defined in three not two ways. The author mention para (with), and en (in). The day of Pentecost the Spirit came epi (upon) the individuals. I see Pentecost as an empowering the saints to do His work. The Spirit came upon Christ, when John baptized Him. The word used in Matthew 3:16 is epi. Christ did not need to be born from above.

In terms of the OT saints is do not see that Scripture indicates that the dwelling of the Holy Spirit was temporary for those who remained faithful. I do not believe I the doctrine, once saved always saved. I believe men try to seperate the OT saints from the NT saints because they have to in order to support the once saved always saved doctrine.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/2/9 11:14Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Jeff:

Interesting observations.

"Once Saved, Always Saved." That deserves a new thread in the Scriptural Debate Forum. I don't know the intricacies of that debate, but I believe genuine Christians should have the assurance of salvation as evidenced in 1 John 5:13, [i]"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that [b]you may know that you have eternal life.[/b]"[/i]

As for Holy Spirit in the OT (this probably should be a new thread too), a similar counter-argument can be made that the NT scripture never indicates the departure of the Holy Spirit from [b]any[/b] believer as in the OT. However, this observation alone is insufficient, because this is an argument from silence (usually not a good idea).

The more important observation is that the Spirit is seen in the NT as a guarantee within the believers for what is to come [b](2 Cor. 1:22, 5:5)[/b]. This would explain why the Spirit never departed from any believer just as it did in the OT.

Consequently, it does seem to me that the promise and the experience of the Spirit in the NT is fuller than and beyond the extent of the OT.

In my view, we should not [i]separate[/i] the OT and the NT people of God as though there is no continuity in God's work; however, neither should we so [i]identify[/i] the two as though there is not two covenant, but one. We need to maintain the tension between the continuity and the discontinuity between the covenants.

We should not interpret scripture merely on the basis that an interpretation [i]supports[/i] a particular doctrine (say, "once saved always saved"); but likewise, we should not interpret scripture on the basis that an interpretation [i]rejects[/i] a particular doctrine! We should strive to read the scripture in its proper context. So let our discussion and fellowship continue!

May the Spirit enlighten us so that we might know him, glorify him, and enjoy him.


_________________
Sam

 2004/2/10 5:48Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

His Agent 001

Your quote: a similar counter-argument can be made that the NT Scripture never indicates the departure of the Holy Spirit from [b]any[/b] believer as in the OT."

Paul writes, "Therefore [b]brethren[/b], [b]we[/b] are debtors -not the the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh [b]you will die[/b]; but if by the [b]Spirit[/b] you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live." Romans 8:12-13

When Paul writes to the believers, he warns them that if they do not submit to being led by the Spirit they will die. I believe this death is a spiritual death. Secondly, this points to the fact that as believers we have the choice to obey or disobey.

Jesus taught, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free...Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. [b]And a slave does not abide in the house forever[/b], but a son abides forever." John 8:31-35

Jesus preaches as He has throughout the gospel that one must obey. Here Jesus says, as Paul has said, that a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son does. Again Jesus taught that only those who follow Him will be set free.

Luke wrote about the incident of Annanias and Saphira. They lost the Holy Spirit.

Now look to the OT. read Ezekiel 33: 10-20. Hear these words and look to the NT for the types.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/2/10 6:27Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Re: Romans 8:12-13

That is not a reference to the Spirit [i]departing[/i] the believer. I personally think that "you will die" means a spiritual death, however, I would not [i]presuppose[/i] that it means the Spirit is leaving the believer. That would be contradictory to Paul's teaching on the Spirit as a deposit in the believer, a guarantee of what is to come (see my reference to 2 Cor).

I also agree that we as believers have a choice to obey or disobey (I think all sensible believers would agree on this). However, I don't think the indwelling of the Spirit is dependent upon our obedience. We may feel disconnected from God, but God is ever ready to embrace us. Otherwise, you sound like the Spirit is going to move in and out all the day.

Note also in Ephesians 4:30, [i]"And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, [b]with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption[/b]."[/i]

In the context, the [i]grieving[/i] of the Spirit refers to "every form of malice" in v. 31, certainly acts of disobedience. However, I see here again the connection to the Spirit as deposit (2 Cor again). The Spirit is a deposit sent by God to seal the believers for the day of redemption. In other words, the Spirit is the proof of God's ownership of the believers until the Lord's second coming.

Re: John 8:31-35

This verse is not a direct reference to the doctrine of the Spirit's indwelling, so I don't really how this fit to the argument, except you want to emphasis obedience.

The highlighted portion regarding slave must be considered in the larger context. The point Jesus was making is that all of humanity are enslaved to sin, only the Son of God Jesus Christ can set us free. Hence, v. 36 "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed." We who are in Christ can enjoy the freedom from the bondage of sin.

Moreover, according to the same author John himself, "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." (John 1:12) Believers are the children of God, not slaves.

Re: Ananias

Again, this incident in Acts 5 is not directly related to the Spirit's indwelling.

The church life was so prevailing and so full of the power of the Spirit that Peter could say, Ananias and his wife lied to the Spirit. Furthermore, the Spirit declared his judgement immediately by putting them to death. If only we are so in sync with the Spirit in the church today!


I understand your logic. You agree upon the fact the Spirit indwells within the believers, but you think the Spirit can also be lost (and possibly regained?). That is because you think the Spirit's indwelling is dependent upon our obedience. You are concerned that otherwise it might give believers a false sense of security ("once saved always saved") and use it as a license to sin.

I say Amen to the cost of discipleship. The Lord fully expects obedience from his disciples. I have no problem with such concerns.

I am concerned though, that you might have read too much [i]into[/i] the Scripture your theological bias.

I think the Spirit lives in the believer as a seal of God's ownership "until the day of redemption." This is a gift given to all believers. However, this is not a license for the believer to sin. If a believer falls into sin, he "grieves the Spirit".

Moreover, I believe in the judgement seat of Christ, a judgement reserved for all believers. All believers will have to give an account of their deeds before the Lord. There will be reward and punishment for the believers.


_________________
Sam

 2004/2/10 13:02Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Hi,

I hear what your saying. First, you say you believe that when Paul writes, you will die, Paul means that you will die spiritually. I agree with you. However, to die spiritually means that you had the Spirit of God in you, and because you reject His voice, I believe that God will turn you over to your own ways. The Spirit is everlasting so for one to die spiritually means that you no longer have the Spirit of God.

Secondly, I understand the idea of being sealed with the Spirit of God as knowing the Holy Spirit is actually with me. Because He speaks to me, because others minister to me through the same Holy Spirit, I know He is with Me. I do believe that God is faithful because of what He has done in my life thus far. That is trust that comes from the sealing of the Spirit. As I walk with my Lord, I grow nearer to Him. He also is teaching me to fear Him. How could I exist without Him. Well as we grow nearer to the Lord, and we choose to deny Him in front of the world, He has every right to do to Me what He did to Annanias and Saphira. His name will not be compromised. To whom much is given much is required.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/2/10 13:23Profile
Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Jeff:

Re: Romans 8:13

Clearly, even though we agree that "you will die" here refers to [i]spiritual death[/i], we are not thinking of the same thing. I understand it to mean a loss of sensitivity towards the Spirit and enjoyment in God. From this perspective, it does not necessarily mean that the Spirit will depart. I think the Spirit will be in us grieving (Eph. 4:30)!

Also, the connection between spiritual death and the possession of the Spirit that you made here is not apparent in the text. It seems to be more of an [i]inference[/i] based on a particular [i]presupposition[/i].

Re: Holy Spirit as a Seal

I say Amen to what you shared. But how do you reconcile your idea that "NT believers may lose the Spirit" with the following?

1) The Spirit is a deposit, guaranteeing [i]what is to come[/i], which implies that the Spirit is a deposit until the Lord's coming. (2 Cor. 1:22, 5:5)

2) Ephesians 1:13-14 is even more explicit. First, [i]"Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,"[/i] indicating that we receive the Spirit as a result of accepting the truth of the gospel. Second, the Spirit is [i]"a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory."[/i] Therefore, those who have believed shall one day be fully redeemed as God's possession and enjoy his heavenly inheritance. This is God's plan, which will not be frustrated.

3) Every mention of the Holy Spirit as a seal of God's ownership and as a deposit guaranteeing what is to come, looks forward to the day of redemption. (After all, the Greek terms were used in business transactions; the Spirit is a "first instalment" that will be fully redeemed in the future). Should we not expect then, that the presence of Holy spirit will be with us until the Lord's coming?

Re: Eternal Security

Some see the doctrine of eternal security as giving an excuse for Christians to indulge in their own desires (because they think they already have a ticket to heaven).

My present understanding is that there are two judgements--

(1) The Unbeliever's Judgement: the judgement at the "great white throne" (Rev. 20:11) where the unbelievers are cast into the lake of fire;

(2) The Believer's Judgement: the "judgement seat of Christ" (Rom. 14:10-12; 2 Cor. 5:10) where the believers are to give an account of themselves to God for "the things done while in the body." It seems to me that all are saved, but not all will receive the same reward (and punishment, maybe?).
It is in this light that I understand Phil 3:14, "I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. "


_________________
Sam

 2004/2/12 4:56Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy