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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

typrs and shadows have to do with the overall shape of a thing. They are able to map outline. They are also 2 dimensional. Reality is always (at least) 3 dimensional.

Imagine a figure of a man with a light behind him. As you approach him you encounter the shadow first. As you draw near you see colour and detail. Sometimes shadows can be frightening. We can only appreciate the shadow properly when we have met the reality.

Many OT events can serve as types and shadows, but pictures are not the reality. Jesus used pictures (parables) because of hardheartedness. When things came into clear focus the disciples said 'now you're speaking plainly'.


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Ron Bailey

 2003/12/5 12:27Profile
Agent001
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Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re: Book Recommendation

A somewhat useful resource in biblical typology that I have is [i][b]A Dictionary of Bible Types[/b][/i] by Walter L. Wilson.

I like the way the editor classifies the entries into three categories. Entries in class A are those explicitly identified as types by the scripture. Those in class B and C are classified based on the strength of biblical evidences.

This is helpful because it raises awareness of the dangers of typology -- reading our own wishful thinking [i]into[/i] the Word of God.

As another poster pointed out, the Jews in the first century would be familiar to similar approaches to scripture, typically known [i]midrash[/i]. However, it probably would not help to convince a Jew today in this way that the OT is tied to Christ. After all, typology is a method of understanding the OT in light of the NT.


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Sam

 2004/2/5 6:46Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
A somewhat useful resource in biblical typology that I have is A Dictionary of Bible Types by Walter L. Wilson.


Intresting I will have to keep my eyes open for this one.

Quote:
This is helpful because it raises awareness of the dangers of typology -- reading our own wishful thinking into the Word of God.


There are some dangers but I think that a majority of preaching these days totally disregards 'types' which is more dangerous! There needs to be more spirit-led teaching in the pulpits. I think this is a problem that John Hyde stated quite well:

"What a thrilling messsage he delivered! How plainly he showed that the Holy Spirit was the One True Witness- to be put first and foremost by all Christians- so that they might also give their witness in His strength and by His help. When he addressed pastors, asking them who was first and foremost in thir pulpits- they themselves, or the Divine Teacher and Guide into all the truth- I don't think there was a single preacher who was not convinced of this sin."
from this thread:
[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1284&forum=40&1]Sialkot Convention of 1905 (praying hyde)[/url]


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/2/5 7:59Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
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 Re:

The shadow or type expressed in Scripture exists no doubt. What I find problematic is that men, for instance, label the appearance of Christ in Old Testament Scripture, as a Christophany (sp). This term then defines a set of ideas which often dismiss the actual work that Christ was accomplishing in the Scripture which has been labeled as such. It dismisses man's responsiblity to recognize that Christ does not change, He has always been part of the Trinity. Thus man has denied Him throughout the generations.

Likewise the work of the Holy Spirit has always existed and has never changed between God and man. Moses wrote, "And the Lord said, My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty." Genesis 6:3 After a hundred years passed the great flood came. What does it mean that God's Spirit strives with man? What does it mean when James writes, "Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously?" What Old Testament Scripture is James refering too?

Does salvation differ from the book of Genesis or Job to the book of Revelation? As Ravenhill preaches, "What are we save from. From hell? From lying? From stealing? What are we saved from?????

God calls through His Holy Spirit, repent, turn back to me. God restores men's souls through the work of Christ.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/2/5 10:45Profile
jouko
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 Re:

"After all, typology is a method of understanding the OT in light of the NT."

Could it be both ways ?


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Jouko Hakola

 2004/2/5 20:45Profile
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 Re:

joukos:

Quote:
"After all, typology is a method of understanding the OT in light of the NT."

Could it be both ways ?

Yes, I think it goes both ways, although in different sense.

We must understand the NT in light of the OT, because the writings of the first century authors are saturated with OT concepts and allusions. The Gospel of John, for instance, is so full of OT allusions that without a proper understanding of the OT we could never fully appreciate. (e.g. References to the lamb that removes sin, manna, bronze serpent, God as the "I AM", etc.)

The point that I was making in my previous posting is that we cannot expect those who did not have a NT perspective (such as Jews) to understand OT typology the way we do, unless faith opens the way. After all, they do not have the full revelation that we as NT believers have received.


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Sam

 2004/2/6 8:02Profile
rookie
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 Re:

joukos wrote: We must understand the NT in light of the OT, because the writings of the first century authors are saturated with OT concepts and allusions...The point that I was making in my previous posting is that we cannot expect...[b]unless faith opens the way.[/b]

Amen! Faith means to follow God, He will reveal Himself to us. I once said as a new believer, "I only need the NT, I have no interest in the OT. An old man spoke after me. He said that he lives in the OT. For there is where you find the mysteries of God. In never saw him again. But that night began a journey that now I say, I spend most of my time in the OT. There is where the mysteries of God are.

Jesus spoke to the men on the road to Emmaus, "And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself...And they said to one another, "Did not our heart burn within us while He talked with us on the road, and while He opened the Scriptures to us.? Luke 24:27,32

Everytime I hear someone say the OT is boring I know the condition of their spiritual lives.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/2/6 8:51Profile
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 Re:

Jeff:

Re: Christophany

I need you to clarify why "Christophany" is a problematic term. As far as I could see, it literally means "the appearance of Christ to his disciples." Applied to the OT, it means "the appearance of Christ [i]before His Incarnation.[/i]" This definition, in my opinion, does not carry any implication that Christ was ever [i][b]not[/b][/i] part of the Triune God.

Re: Spirit

I am also a little puzzled here -

Are you saying that James 4:5 is quoting Genesis 6:3? Frankly, I do not see the connection.

(As for what James is referring to in 4:5, the IVP NT Commentaries on James says, [i]"We would be helped in determining the meaning if a definite Old Testament origin could be identified, but there is no verse like the last half of 4:5. In the absence of a definite reference by which to establish the meaning, two major understandings have been proposed...," etc.[/i] [url=http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/webcommentary?language=english&version=niv&book=jas&chapter=4]Biblegateway.com[/url])

Nevertheless, references to the work of the [i]Spirit of God[/i] are quite clear in the OT. It does seem though that there are no reference in the OT to the Spirit's indwelling within the believer (The OT emphasis seems to be on the Spirit's outpouring on individuals in order to empower them to accomplish specific tasks for God-- note that the Spirit departed from Saul after his kingship was rejected in 1 Samuel 16:14). Therefore, I think there are perhaps aspects of experiencing the Spirit that the NT believers enjoy to a fuller extent than the OT people of God.

Jeff, I think in the overall picture, we have much agreement. I do not doubt that the Triune God co-existed from eternity to eternity, nor do I doubt that the Trinity worked throughout the OT. Indeed, I believe that Christ is the ultimate central theme of all of Scripture. And typology is one of the legitimate methods to draw out this connection between the OT and the NT -- Christ is the all in all. May glory be to him, for ever and ever.


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Sam

 2004/2/6 9:05Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
joukos wrote: We must understand the NT in light of the OT, because the writings of the first century authors are saturated with OT concepts and allusions...The point that I was making in my previous posting is that we cannot expect...unless faith opens the way.

Hey Jeff! I wrote that, not joukos!

Agent001


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Sam

 2004/2/6 9:08Profile
rookie
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 Re:

Sorry brother.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/2/6 11:08Profile





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