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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Does anyone know of a solid biblical response to MacArthur's sermons on tongues and spiritual gifts?

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 Re:

Quote:
I too have been bothered by the powerlessness that is often seen among pentecostal people



Like everything that starts out good, and this goes for every denominational faith out there that it all goes to hell in a hand basket.

The only thing that will get us back into shape is by the word of God and prayer.

Now that doesn't mean devotion time and a little lay me down to sleep prayer. I am talking about totally being in love with our heavenly Father that we do what Jesus did, at betimes stay up all night praying. NOT out of duty, no no no no. But out of love for God.

God spoke years ago and told us that "When My people have nothing on their minds but Me, I'll meet with them, and nothing shall be impossible for them."

Daniel 11 32 the people that do KNOW their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

Daniel was a Statesman for the King of Babylon and the King of the Medes and Persians. He would be a busy man, yet he found the time to give to God his time.

We must fall in love with Jesus like a man who loves his wife and intimately spends time together. We must have that intimacy.

 2010/5/17 20:16
Becca2010
Member



Joined: 2010/5/15
Posts: 9
Florida, USA

 Re:

Hello!

I come from a Pentecostal background, but I've found myself questioning my Pentecostal experience because I seem to lack the power that Biblical Pentecost should produce. What I've been led back to lately is this question: what is the purpose of the baptism of the Holy Ghost?

Jesus spoke to His disciples about the coming Comforter in John 14-16. From these verses we learn that it is the purpose of the Holy Ghost to teach the disciples and to remind them of the words of Christ (John 14:26); it is also His purpose to testify of Jesus (John 15:26). And these verses from John 16:7-15 I want to post here in full:
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you."

It would seem to me that the gifts of the Spirit would only build on these original purposes of the Holy Ghost that Jesus taught here. Therefore, the gifts of the spirit must teach us about Jesus, remind us of the words of Jesus, testify of Jesus, and glorify Jesus. There is also an element of judgment in the work of the Holy Ghost so the gifts must have an element of judgment as well.

What I have seen in the Pentecostal church is a tendancy to replace the message of the cross with what we have called the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Certainly there are three areas of focus in the work of the Holy Ghost and, therefore, in spiritual gifts. The Comforter was to come to perform the personal work of reminding the disciples of the words of Christ; this could also be viewed as a corporate work in the early church; the Comforter also was to have a work in the world in testifying of Jesus and reproving the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

We see here, then, that there is a Biblical foundation for spiritual gifts to be able to edify believers in their personal spiritual growth, to edify the church in corporate worship, and to bring judgment to unbelievers who come in contact with the spiritual gifts through the lives of believers or in the church body.

Note: The foundation of the work of the Comforter is to lift up Jesus. Any person claiming to be operating under the influence of God's Spirit or using spiritual gifts can be proven true or false based on this criteria: do they magnify Jesus Christ?

So, there's what I've learned thus far on this topic. I'm always still learning. And, as always, look it up and study it out for yourself, asking God to lead you.


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Rebecca

 2010/5/18 0:56Profile









 Re:

Phane said:

Quote:
p.s. From my own initial experience, I do not consider tongues a "second work of grace" as some think. It is considered a result of salvation, and accordingly, comes through obedience to God's Word, plain and simple.



snufalapagus:
Thank you for making that scripturally clear.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
_____________________________________________________

g: No, thank you Murray for making that scripturally clear. Until you wrote, no clear-cut biblical response was recognized.

(this might be because of hearing so many times that 'acts was a historical book and does not apply to today.' Though that was not ever believed, the wrong speaking so many times enabled such to keep on slithering around in these thoughts. Now it's head has been stomped on.

Until you posted, i had no answer for those whose said things like,"are you sure that was from God" or "that just is not true", and it was wondered what Brenda might say...yet prayers were that speaking the truth in love would be confirm here somehow someway.

Now others can be assured and know it is of a surety true without questioning... thinking that is just my experience.

OH YEAH, yup, yes yes yes yes yes and amen brother!
*ear to ear koolaid smile*

Thanks again for the commendation.


CIAO!
g

 2010/5/18 6:22









 Re:

by Becca2010 on 2010/5/17 20:56:47

Hello!

g: Hallo, and it's good to know others are peeking out from behind the text they are reading.

You said:
... the gifts of the spirit must teach us about Jesus, remind us of the words of Jesus, testify of Jesus, and glorify Jesus. There is also an element of judgment in the work of the Holy Ghost so the gifts must have an element of judgment as well... The foundation of the work of the Comforter is to lift up Jesus. Any person claiming to be operating under the influence of God's Spirit or using spiritual gifts can be proven true or false based on this criteria: do they magnify Jesus Christ?

g quothe:

John 3:
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 15:26, 16:
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Jn 12:31, 32, 17:3



John 2:
7 Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim.

8 And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.

9 When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,

10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

11 This beginning of miracles did Jesus...

Acts 2:13


 2010/5/18 7:01
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
It would seem to me that the gifts of the Spirit would only build on these original purposes of the Holy Ghost that Jesus taught here. Therefore, the gifts of the spirit must teach us about Jesus, remind us of the words of Jesus, testify of Jesus, and glorify Jesus. There is also an element of judgment in the work of the Holy Ghost so the gifts must have an element of judgment as well.



Becca: ABSOLUTELY! Amen! The gifts are not the PURPOSE of the Holy Spirit, they are the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. They are the tools He uses as He operated from His purpose to accomplish the will of God in the earth. It was never about tongues, prophecy, healings, miracles, or any of the other gifts. It was about the Spirit of Him who raised Christ from the dead living and dwelling in us. It was about His power being imparted to us. It was about us becoming "god men" if I may use that term. Little Christs, or manifested sons of God walking this earth filled with the same Spirit that indwelt Christ Jesus. It is about our being in communion with the Spirit of God so that His supernatural nature lives through us to reach and minister to this fallen world. From your post I know that you agree that the gifts of the Spirit are valid and active among the church today. It was God's intent that it be so. But the gifts are not the focal point.

I think that is why we see Paul teaching that the love of God in 1 Cor. 13 is to be the motivating factor behind the operation of the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor. 12 and 14. Although it has been applied to human relationships and particularly to marriage, it was never intended so. Paul was speaking in context of the gifts of the Spirit and was dealing with the motivation behind the gifts. God's kind of love and compassion (charity) is the catalyst, the motivation that drives the operation of the gifts of the Spirit.


_________________
Travis

 2010/5/18 16:18Profile









 Re:

My connection was down today and I missed a whole pile of posts but I hope to catch up tomorrow as it is beddie bye time for me now that my connection is back :(

 2010/5/18 16:39
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

BAM!!! Travis you nailed it. I have been watching this thread the whole time and here we finally have the ringer. The manifestations of the giftings are a reflection of body health, and that Body health is the result of believers being subjected to the fundamental purpose of the Spirit, which Jesus said was to convict of: Sin, Righteousness, and Judgment. When we walk in yielded response to these "comforts," AS A BODY, and not as Islands or individuals. Then the manifesting of the gifts of faith through love will have their right expression and we will have no jealousy when God decides to use an individual, rather we as the body will prayerfully bear those brothers and sisters on our shoulders through prayer and support because we know that God has a purpose in how he articulates this through different members. It is when we get this backwards and try to force out the manifestations without first having built upon the proper foundation, that the building gets crooked.

We see that in the book of acts chapter 9:31, that the churches had rest and in this rest they were walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the COMFORT of the Holy Ghost, which Jesus directly linked to the above mentioned convictions. When the body was rightly walking in these comforts...it was then that Peter passed throughout all quarters and dramatic manifestations expressed the working of the Spirit.

I think part of the problem, at least as I am starting to see it, is that we view this whole discussion on too much of an individualistic basis. It is body life...not island life, that works this stuff out. It is my sincere hope that at the very least, we as the church may once again get this foundation collectively right of responding to the convictions together.

What we can perceive to be manifestations can well be a perversion of reality when we are not primarily subject to God convicting us of sin, toward the righteousness of the Son, because we understand the Nature of Gods judgment as the serpents head was bruised at the resurrection. Which is a warning to all men. We must readily, regularly be willing to expose our selves to the Judgments of God. At any time for it is then that we "walk in the light, as he is in the light." The light of His fiery gaze rends asunder the shadowy tatters of my heart. When the body of Christ walks in this with complete submission and total recognition of these things it leads to total yieldedness to His purposes. Then world...look out cuz some stuff is going to be put to open shame as the purpose of the Cross is fulfilled in actuality.

At least these are conclusions I have come to just from studying the topic myself. I recognize that I have never heard anyone teach this before so...I am willing to recognize that my interpretation is possibly muddled. However it sure seems to be the implication to me. And I also recognize that I have yet to see this in total actuality. It is my sincere hope though that God uses sermonindex and a coming revival to bring us to this unity of the faith as one Body such that the Spirit is not limited by our petty cutting and devouring of one another.

Jesus is looking for the yielded Bride...not pompous individualism.


_________________
Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/5/18 16:48Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Areadymind: I agree brother. The baptism of the Holy Spirit, while it is an individual experience, has at its core the idea that we are thus empowered to be joints supplying as God has given us to supply.

From your post, I would almost swear that you have been reading Watchman Nee or T.A. Sparks.

Submission to the Holy Spirit and self-determination are opposite and in any specific area of my life mutually exclusive. I once heard a man say that just as the medium of exchange in the world's system is money, the medium of exchange in the kingdom of God is obedience. It is not that we earn anything from God, as the things of the kingdom cannot be earned. But there is a surrender, a submission to the Lord that opens us up to be channels through which the Holy Spirit can move. Through surrender and obedience we empower God to be able to work in our lives by removing the hindrance of self.

Great post! I must say I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread almost more than any other I have taken part in.


_________________
Travis

 2010/5/18 18:43Profile
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re:

I have read a little bit of Nee, but t.b.h. I don't know anything about T. Austin Sparks, I have seen him on here but have failed to really listen to anything. That post actually came out of a great deal of agonizing for me through exactly what Jesus meant when he talked about the convictions of the Spirit. As I had never really heard anyone teach on it, and was wrestling through a lot of these issues, and having seen a lot of half-hearted attempts of individuals I know to manifest the Spirit...but there was always something direly lacking. What I was forced to conclude is that it is all real...but its slightly wonky and out of place because what I saw was built on shifting sand rather than on rock. The manifesting of the Spirit just cannot in any way be contrived by men. So I just wait, and I pray, and hope to find other like minded believers who are willing to wait as well.


_________________
Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/5/18 18:55Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Note: The foundation of the work of the Comforter is to lift up Jesus. Any person claiming to be operating under the influence of God's Spirit or using spiritual gifts can be proven true or false based on this criteria: do they magnify Jesus Christ?



If they were operating under any gift of the Spirit it would have to be genuine.

John 3:2 Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

*************************************

The last part of your quote, "Do they magnify Jesus Christ?".

That is the scary part of deception, most of them do.

Jesus said, Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

They will glorify Jesus Christ through and through, but the end result is what kind of people are they drawing in? What kind of fruit is being harvested?

**************************************
Quote:
It would seem to me that the gifts of the Spirit would only build on these original purposes of the Holy Ghost that Jesus taught here. Therefore, the gifts of the spirit must teach us about Jesus, remind us of the words of Jesus, testify of Jesus, and glorify Jesus. There is also an element of judgment in the work of the Holy Ghost so the gifts must have an element of judgment as well.



Well said and very true!!

 2010/5/18 19:00





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