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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Does anyone know of a solid biblical response to MacArthur's sermons on tongues and spiritual gifts?

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Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3396
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Pacific Ocean


Quote:
Now, there was a pastor from a certain denomination, who shared the view that tongues simply were not for today. So here he is standing in the Pacific Ocean baptizing new converts, and then all of a sudden, one guy goes under the water, and when he comes up, he's speaking in tongues.



Praise the Lord! That's sounds just like something God would do!! LOL To God be all the glory!


_________________
Lisa

 2010/5/17 11:27Profile









 Re:

Quote:
It is exactly that attitude that causes so much error in the church by picking out a couple of verses to `prove` something rather than looking at "precept upon precept".



Lets not forget, "here a little, and there a little". I am sure we have all read our bibles and the light would turn on here and there, but we don't completely get the whole picture until another time of receiving a "little" more.

You have a preterist way of thinking and I agree with your understanding of the judgment being poured out on the Jews in that first century, I have no trouble with that. There are all kinds of scriptures in the OT that signify their demise.

However, this is about speaking in tongues.

Now, since you were very candid in being up front at the beginning when I asked anyone to be forward and upfront about this way, I am going to be up front as well and I know I am going to get a lot of flack on this.

According to how I read the New Testament, I do not see how anyone can receive the holy Ghost unless they speak in tongues or prophesy as the Spirit gives the utterance.

When Paul saw certain disciples in Acts 19, the first question out of his mouth was, "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?"

Today we don't ask that question, we are settled when someone says that they are a Christian.

We go back to this precept upon precept idea for those who claim to have the holy Ghost without the initial evidence upon receiving Him, use the verse about when Jesus breathed upon them saying, receive ye the holy Ghost" as their bases of belief to avoid the scary application of having something come out of their mouth that they can't understand intellectually.

Upon believing the report about Jesus Christ one is justified by faith, we have peace with God. The filling of the Holy Spirit does not yet occur here. Like the Samaritans, there was great joy but the Holy Ghost was not yet given.

 2010/5/17 11:41









 Re:

Brenda writes

"brother Frank

I am sorry that I did not differentiate between charismatics and Pentecostals and apologise for any offence."

No offence taken sister. I appreciate the fact that you are on the forum and I love you as a brother in Christ. Do you know Brenda that our Lord is such a Gentleman, that has been my experience. He has never forced me to do anything, not a single thing. When I have messed up and come to him to willingly, and gladly put my head on the chopping block, He has lifted up my head and poured out His love upon me. I have been broken and delivered many times by the power of His love for me. His Love never fails, He is faithful, even when I am not. He has never left me nor forsaken me (this is an unexplainable miracle to me)

The Lord spoke through me one time to tell a Pastor that he had exaclty the kind of church that he desired. This came in the context of that Pastor crying out for change, yet the Lord had me say that the Pastor had exaclty the kind of church that he wanted. I believe that for most of us Christians, we have exactly the kind of walk that we want, despite what we would "cry out.' It is the hidden things of the heart that the Lord deals with. I have exaclty the kind of relationship with the Lord that I want, and I believe that you do to. He has given you the desire of your heart. He is such a Good God. Be blessed Brenda.

To the Hungry He gives Manna, to the thirsty, He gives living waters..............brother Frank

 2010/5/17 12:01
RainMan
Member



Joined: 2010/4/21
Posts: 227


 Re: EverestoSama

I think you are spot on.

Testimony:
I was praying at a pentecostal night vigil a few years back. There was something i could really reconcile and had been asking God. It says in the old testament that where the word of a king is there is power. I was wondering why with a room of over 350 people at a night vigil all screaming out in tongues why someone could be wheeled in on a wheel chair and then be wheeled back out again. I demanded an answer because something was wrong. Then it was like a flood gate. He asked me How can 350 spirit filled believers have a true in filling and pray for 3 hours for a better house, Car Job and business. Its simple son of the people here who have received received a genuine gift the majority are pleading for their abominable sins and covetousness. The others i went on to learn were just mimicking the gift as they had been trained to psycho-semantically produce these gifts by others (An unction in the flesh). I was saved at one of the biggest pentecostal churches in England. I was literally forced to speak in tongues they literally shouted at me and the wife "Common, speak it, let it flow" i was intimated into speaking in tongues but my heart felt empty. Somehow i knew i didn't have the authentic gift of tongues and kept on pressing God for and in-filling. The holy spirit gives gifts as he wills. We are told to follow the way of love but to also seek the best spiritual gifts.


Question

Mark 16:17
17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
(gloce'-sah
Of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication a language (specifically one naturally unacquired): - tongue.)

1.What did Jesus mean by saying they(believers) will speak with a new tongue?

2. If Jesus meant only believers of a certain point it time would speak with a new tongue then what other promises to believers are not meant for the modern day believer? And how do i determine what promises of the new testament no longer apply.







 2010/5/17 12:06Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3396
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Bread or a stone?



The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For [b]they heard them speaking in tongues[/b] and praising God. (Acts 10.45-46)

People say you don't have to receive tongues to have the baptism of the Holy Spirit but I am going to be candid as well and say that I believe this Scripture in Acts proves that speaking in tongues was the most common sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Because as soon as Peter and the rest heard them, they knew they were accepted by the Father. And then Peter asks what is to keep them from being baptised in water?

I'd like to add as new as this gift of the Holy Spirit was, Peter wasn't afraid he or anyone else was receiving "another" spirit instead of the Holy Spirit... He trusted God that if they asked their Heavenly Father for bread, He would not give them a stone. Is anything less expected from us? No, we MUST trust that if we ask God for the baptism and the gifts of divers tongues, He will not give us a stone either!!


_________________
Lisa

 2010/5/17 13:44Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

The scripture that Lysa commented on is very prevalent to helping Brenda if she will only receive it. Jesus’ words are very clear that if we being evil know how to give good gifts to our children then how much more will the Father give the Holy Spirit to them who ask Him. He says that God will not give us something to harm us.

This I have perceived is the main problem that Brenda is experiencing concerning her relationship with the Lord. I sense that this could be the main reason she is not feeling the presence of the Lord with the joy that is so important to our walk with God.

Brenda we must know God and know that we are living in the last days of the out pouring of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the same as Jesus being the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

We must overcome all fear that the Lord will allow anyone of his children to receive anything evil when they are truly honestly seeking to be filled with the Holy Spirit.

We also are to understand that people are deceived and have received a counterfeit to the genuine experience. The genuine is of the true God and the counterfeit is of the devil.

We are to know that one must be born of God before they can be filled or baptized in the Holy Spirit. God will not baptize/fill a person with the Holy Spirit that has not been born of God first. The devil can give a counterfeit spirit to those who are not born of God but a counterfeit spirit cannot enter and live in the temple of God in whose temple we are because God will not allow it.

Brenda you need to be free from your fear of not fully trusting God because the bible says that perfect love casts out fear. He that fears is not made perfect in love.

It is clear from the book of acts that all those who were baptized in the Holy Spirit (Jews & Gentiles) spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance.

The Holy Spirit is the same today and is doing the same things he did in the beginning of the church.

Brenda if you know that you are born of God and that God truly loves you then don’t grieve or quench the Holy Spirit. We are grieving the Holy Spirit if we don’t trust Him thinking that He would give us or allow anything that is not of God to come into our lives.

Now if a person is not born again of God and is seeking a spirit or desiring power then you can be deceived because the seed of God is not abiding in you.

God is Spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and is truth.

Ps. Don’t attribute what the Holy Spirit does to the devil. It is the devil who counterfeits not God. Those people of God who are saved by the blood of Jesus and baptized in the Holy Ghost with the same evidence of speaking in tongues that they received in the beginning of the church have the Spirit and the Word of God to back up their experience.

Ps. Since I have been gloriously baptized in the Holy Spirit (with bible evidence) it has caused me to overcome things that I could have in no way of ever being able to overcome. I don’t even bother to argue with people who claim the experience is not of God nor do I get upset with them because there is a peace in knowing. I have learned to pity and have compassion on the ignorant. But God knows whether the person is ignorant or just being vicious.




 2010/5/17 16:02Profile









 Re:

by krautfrau on 2010/5/17 1:36:01

Phanetheus

"If the gift of tongues was to be for all times then their appearance at Pentecost as tongues of fire would also be for all times.

g:
How so?
Where did you find thast in the Bible."

B:
The tongues of fire on the disciples heads accompanied the speaking of foreign languages and it is rather up to you to show that this precedent was not continued if it is the same gift today. God does not change so where does it say that He would change this?
____________________________________________________________
g comments further:

Well, for one thing, that is not what any other book references to tongues say: Mark 16:17, I Cor. 12-16.

Let me get this straight, in 1st Corintians, you think that Paul said do not speak in tongues because "tongue talking" is not of God? or what?

The passage in Mark is pretty open ended (and prolongative at that)- "they shall". Those who will speak with tongues believe (this way), so i guess those who do not don't... (It's true for everything else mentioned in that end passage)...confirming Mk. 11:23.

Mark 16:17 "...speak... new tongues..."


speak = λαλέω-->laleo = talk, say, utter, tell

new = καινός-->kainos = never used before (unused), recently created form, unheard of, of a new kind

tongues = γλῶσσα-->glossa = distinct language and/or dialect

With this above insight before you, tell why it must be some known language and used only for preaching?
____________________________________________________________
previous post continued:

g
"AS well, what draws you to the conclusion that Paul was talking about 'true and false' tongues... two types???"

This is my understanding of the text. Would you like to explain how the Greek disagrees?

"p.s.
There is little discernment in all people."

Please do not misquote me - I said tongue speakers.
____________________________________________________________

i am not misquoting you. Those are my words and that is what was typed by these fingers as representing my thoughts exactly: myself as part of that ending p.s. statement.

Regarding your conclusion though, consider Paul's words beginning I Cor. 13 in relation to Mark 16:17's meaning, rather than assuming that he was being either sarcastic or cynical.

I don't understand how you have ascertained this conclusion so i would rather you clarify what indicates (at all) that they have ceased or he speaks of true-vs false and we can take it from there.

CIAO!
g
Acts 20:32

p.s. From my own initial experience, i do not consider tongues a "second work of grace" as some think. It is considered a result of salvation, and accordingly, comes through obedience to God's Word, plain and simple. Actually, "baptism of Holy Spirit" is inappropriate terminology. i would rather refer to the Holy Spirit's work as the greek indicates: 'infilling' at salvation and 'outpouring' or 'to be clothed in' through obedience into His promises from the sciptures, whether tongues or healing or any other gift of grace (through His salvation) available through His faithfulness.





 2010/5/17 16:06
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I was saved at one of the biggest pentecostal churches in England. I was literally forced to speak in tongues they literally shouted at me and the wife "Common, speak it, let it flow" i was intimated into speaking in tongues but my heart felt empty. Somehow i knew i didn't have the authentic gift of tongues and kept on pressing God for and in-filling. The holy spirit gives gifts as he wills. We are told to follow the way of love but to also seek the best spiritual gifts.



Rainman: Unfortunately these things do happen in the body of Christ. It highlights that need for mature eldership and mature teachers in the body. When I counsel someone on receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, I will explain that this baptism, like salvation, is received as a gift by faith. It is God's expressed desire, and if the person I am praying with is born again, they qualify. Praying in tongues is a powerful part of a spirit filled life, but it is not the focal point. I simply tell them that they can pray in tongues once they receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, tell them that praying in tongues too, like all else we receive from God or do in His power, is an act of faith. I have yet to have anyone not begin to pray in tongues upon receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I too have been bothered by the powerlessness that is often seen among pentecostal people. I have seen the lame walk. I have seen one who had no sense of smell have it restored in an instant. A few weeks ago I saw a young man regain peripheral vision that had been lost for several years in an instant of time. I have also prayed and seen nothing happen in that moment, many times. One prayer of mine has been, Lord, fill me more and more with the power of Your Holy Spirit and give me Your heart in ministering to others. It is sad to see people to whom a new car outweighs the salvation or healing of another. But I praise God that He is changing hearts and that His power is poured out nonetheless.


_________________
Travis

 2010/5/17 19:26Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
People say you don't have to receive tongues to have the baptism of the Holy Spirit but I am going to be candid as well and say that I believe this Scripture in Acts proves that speaking in tongues was the most common sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.



Lysa: I agree. One does not have to pray in tongues to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but I don't believe one will long be baptized in the Holy Spirit before he will be praying in tongues.


_________________
Travis

 2010/5/17 19:28Profile









 Re:

Phane said:

Quote:
p.s. From my own initial experience, I do not consider tongues a "second work of grace" as some think. It is considered a result of salvation, and accordingly, comes through obedience to God's Word, plain and simple.



Thank you for making that scripturally clear.

Acts 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

 2010/5/17 20:02





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