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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Does anyone know of a solid biblical response to MacArthur's sermons on tongues and spiritual gifts?

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twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
One of the things which really swung it for me, apart from the fact that my first encounter with tongues left my spirit disturbed



Brenda: I know I have shared this before on another thread, but I would like to share with you my personal testimony if I may.

I was raised in a movement that very much believed in entire sanctification as the second definite work of grace after salvation. Within this movement individual viewpoints ranged from one end of the spectrum to the other. Some believed in christian perfectionism and that sanctification placed a believer in a totally sinless condition. I know of more than one person who, as a result of this teaching, have stalled out at that place in their Christian walk, seeing that they are not yet "perfect" in their own actions and believing that they have not been nor can be sanctified, and have given up on ever receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This because of a teaching that one is not holy enough and does not qualified to be baptized in the Holy Spirit until one has reached some arbitrary level of sinlessness and personal holiness. I say arbitrary because it seems to be different for each person. Personally, I believe that this has given the enemy a great foothold as he is always able to cast doubt. I was one of those who was so affected.

I prayed in earnest for the baptism of the Holy Spirit for several years off and on but was always stopped short by doubts, although the presence and power of God were very palpably upon me.

Finally, I realized that my victory over sin was not a matter of "sanctification" at all. That sanctification is a separation of myself from one purpose or use and a simultaneous separation of myself unto another purpose or use. It was a separation from the world and from the worlds way of thinking, speaking, and doing unto God and unto His way of thinking, speaking and doing. It was a realization that holiness would never by a product of my setting myself apart unto God aside from this setting apart being empowered by the Holy Spirit. In other words, I did not need to somehow reach a certain level of holiness in order to qualify to be baptized in the Holy Spirit, but I needed to be baptized in the Holy Spirit in order to have the power to overcome sin. It was a bit like trying to vacuum the carpet with a vacuum cleaner that was not plugged into the power source, hoping that the power source would somehow connect if I got the carpet clean enough.

Anyway, when this revelation came, I receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit easily. It had not been God's lack of giving. The gift was already there. It was my lack of ability to receive.

When I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit I was enraptured with the presence of God. His presence was so sweet. It was the same presence that had been palpable before. I began to worship Him, to praise Him, and my words were not enough. I began to pray in another tongue. I come from a very musical family and love to sing. I then desired to sing and worship the Lord. I began singing in another tongue. Suddenly I realized I was not singing alone. A friend of mine who had also been seeking the baptism of the Holy Spirit had also received and was singing with me, the same melody unknown to either of us, the same words in a tongue unknown to either of us, in perfect unison and harmony. And with it was the sweet presence of the Holy Spirit.

Over the last 20 years I have learned more and more how to walk in the Spirit. I have realized the great empowerment of the Spirit of God and His ever abiding presence. Even at times when I have been unfaithful, He has never withdrawn but has instead convicted me and wooed me into the presence of God in repentance. I have experienced the gifts of the Spirit and pray in tongues daily. Oh His sweet presence.

Just thought I would share that with you. I pray that God richly bless you today.


_________________
Travis

 2010/5/16 16:39Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Not so. The sign of tongues was the sign for the Jews to repent as the judgement of God had come.



At least two scriptures would be nice to have the above statement confirmed. That the speaking in tongues was a sign for the impending doom that the Jews would suffer if they rejected their Messiah.

Because it doesn't say that in Mark's gospel. Mark 16:15-18

[15] And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

In all the world is for both Jews who are scattered yes, but also the gentile as we would see later on in the Acts.

Every creature, not just Jews.

[16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

plain and to the point.

[17] And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Now it doesn't say here that those who are going to believe are just Jews.

[18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Again, Christ is talking to anyone who believes.

 2010/5/16 16:59
Greenlea
Member



Joined: 2008/11/5
Posts: 28


 Re: Does anyone know of a solid biblical response to MacArthur's sermons on tongues and spiritual gi

Hello All!!

I for one must say that I am glad that this questions was asked and that there are so many responses. I myself have struggled with this question of cessationism within the last few weeks or so. Being raised a Christian and being on the fringes of Pentecostalism, COGIC, Baptist these were things that were mentioned only every now and then, but my dad and mom were somewhat open to all the gifts believing that God is sovereign and will do whatever He wanted, whenever He wanted to.

I had heard the word cessationism before, but never really thought much about it until a few weeks ago listening to Wretched Radio. Apparently Todd is a cessationist. I don't hold that against him. I have finally come to the conclusion that not everyone has light on everything. There are many things that Christians tried to tell me years ago that I could not understand until now. When God finally opened my eyes to my blindness I was dumbfounded. How could I have not seen this or that!! Well in the Lord's timing He showed me grace and opened my eyes where I was blind.

As for tongues let me share a story that I heard from a minister that visited our congregation a few years ago. I had read somewhere that tongues were no longer for the church and that people were not really speaking in a language, but speaking gibberish. This person gave many proof texts from the scriptures and I (as a person that speaks in tongues) decided that I must have missed God on this. Because I wanted to be scripturally sound on this, decided that I would not speak in tongues again. A few weeks later after making this decision the above mentioned minister came to visit. He shared a story with us of his salvation.

He was an unbelieving Jew who had married a Gentile. A friend of his wife's began to witness to her and invited her to a Pentecostal church revival. The wife went and got saved, so therefore she invited her Jewish husband to return with her. For some time the husband refused to go because he was Jewish, although not a practicing Jew.

One night after pressure from his wife, he decided to go. I remember he said that the evangelist told them after the sermon that anyone who wanted the Holy Spirit, with the evidence of tongues should come up to the altar. He said that he had no idea what they were talking about and had only heard of tongues as they related to animals since his dad had been a butcher.

He began to feel uncomfortable and left to walk outside to the foyer. While outside he began contemplating in his mind about what was going on, firmly believing that he needed to go back inside, get his wife and leave. As he was about to go back inside another young man walked out, saw him and asked if he could pray for him. He being surprised and not knowing what to do, said sure. He said that the young man began to pray for him and as he did he began to pray the Amidah which is a Jewish prayer. He said that he was very familiar with the prayer being raised a Ashkenazi or either a Sephardic Jew (I can't remember which one).

After the young man finished praying he says that he asked him why he was at this church since he was a Jew. The man had no idea what he was talking about. This is when he explained about the Amidah prayer. The young man had never heard of it and did not realize that the Jewish man could understand his prayer language.

This was a great testimony for me and made me realize that the tongues I have are given to me by God. Some may not understand it and may not believe it is for today. That no longer concerns me. I will just keep praying that my Father will open up their eyes where they are blinded. I know, because there are areas in my life where I have been blind and am just now seeing.

lea

 2010/5/16 19:55Profile









 Re:

Lea that was a terrific testimony.

However......

Quote:
As for tongues let me share a story that I heard from a minister that visited our congregation a few years ago. I had read somewhere that tongues were no longer for the church and that people were not really speaking in a language, but speaking gibberish. This person gave many proof texts from the scriptures and I (as a person that speaks in tongues) decided that I must have missed God on this. Because I wanted to be scripturally sound on this, decided that I would not speak in tongues again. A few weeks later after making this decision the above mentioned minister came to visit. He shared a story with us of his salvation.



I am a bit confused with this paragraph. It sounds like the Minister at the first was refuting tongues and the Minister at the end is relating a story how he believes in it.

Should the paragraph be written this way: [emphasis mine]

As for tongues let me share a story that I heard from a minister that visited our congregation a few years ago.

[But let me first share this with you,] I had read somewhere that tongues were no longer for the church and that people were not really speaking in a language, but speaking gibberish. [The writer] gave many proof texts from the scriptures and I (as a person that speaks in tongues) decided that I must have missed God on this. Because I wanted to be scripturally sound on this, decided that I would not speak in tongues again. A few weeks later after making this decision the above mentioned minister came to visit. He shared a story with us of his salvation.

 2010/5/16 23:31









 Re:

snufalapagus

It is exactly that attitude that causes so much error in the church by picking out a couple of verses to `prove` something rather than looking at "precept upon precept".

If you cannot see that the whole chapter of Isaiah 29 is a prophecy of the sign of tongues, and the link between what happened and Babel, including the fact that it was tongues of fire that appeared on the heads of the disciples, a sign of judgement, which signified that the day of the Lord had come where there would be judgement according to Acts 2:19-20 (blood and fire and vapour of smoke)and the prophecy of John the Baptist in Matt 2:11-12 saying that

"He shall baptise you with the Holy Ghost and with fire, whose fan is in His hand and He will purge His floor and gather His wheat into the garner but will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

that the Jews present at Jerusalem at Pentecost, hearing praises in their own tongues having travelled from far and wide, should have recognised that the day of the Lord had arrived but that the Messiah was not for them alone but for all men of different tongues and nationalities including the accursed Samaritans. It was the culmination of all of the prophesies and pleadings of God that His people would turn to Him but they did not and now this was their last chance because a great stumbling block would be in their way in that Gentiles were being baptised in the Spirit too.

Of course it was not just Jews who were given this gift, and not all were given it but its purpose was to draw in the Jews who knew their scriptures very well and should have seen the message and many did but many did not and it would be the last time God would give them this chance to turn.

If the gift of tongues was to be for all times then their appearance at Pentecost as tongues of fire would also be for all times.

I believe that very early on the error of babbling came into the Corinthhian church and Paul is trying to correct this which makes the reading of the chapters a bit confusing as he is speaking about two types of tongues, the genuine and the counterfeit.But his message is that if one speaks in non intelligible language then it is sounding brass.

I am grateful for my Calvinist background as I sought to find out if tongues as practised to days was really from God from studying scripture and asking God to reveal the truth for me, rather than coming at it from my own experiences or those of people I trusted. I came with an open mind knowing that any experience can be a deception from the enemy or even mans own mind but sadly I found that there was little discernment in tongue speaking peoples, any manifestation was accepted without caution.

 2010/5/17 3:22









 Re:

by krautfrau on 2010/5/16 23:22:13

If the gift of tongues was to be for all times then their appearance at Pentecost as tongues of fire would also be for all times.

g:
How so?
Where did you find thast in the Bible.

Though John the Immerser was prophecying specifically regarding what you state in your post to s...

Where else in the scriptures does it say that tongues are accompanied with fire?


AS well, what draws you to the conclusion that Paul was talking about 'true and false' tongues... two types???

You have not read the greek mss... or is this really an assumption drawn by somebody who has never experienced such?

CIAO!
g
Acts 20:32

p.s.
There is little discernment in all people.

It's so good to know that you have your head screwed on properly so that you are without any problems and accompanying confusion other dingbats make for themselves.



 2010/5/17 4:45









 Re:

twayneb

Thanks for sharing that testimony. It is very sad that wrong teaching regarding having to come up to a certain level before one can be baptised in the Spirit leads believers astray and causes some to give up.

I am happy for you that it did not stop you though. As for the experience following, I can only say that I would have tested it very strongly before I would accept it as from God no matter how nice or amazing it was. I don`t mean just checking out a few verses or taking the teaching of other tongue believers, but an independent searching of the scriptures.

I will also add that many think they have been baptised in the Spirit but fail to testify to being without sin. The lower the goalpost to it being deliberate sin. There is also a counterfeit baptism I believe. This is not paranoia but a reluctance to accept anything with the testing fo the spirits that the scriptures commands us.

 2010/5/17 5:26









 Re:

brother Frank

I am sorry that I did not differentiate between charismatics and Pentecostals and apologise for any offence. I think I do have an idea of the differences but it was only charismatics that I met. Even so the teaching on tongues is the same I believe although the practice of it in the church might be different with more intent on being scriptural.

Thank you for your words of encouragement.

Brenda

 2010/5/17 5:30









 Re:

Phanetheus

"If the gift of tongues was to be for all times then their appearance at Pentecost as tongues of fire would also be for all times.

g:
How so?
Where did you find thast in the Bible."

The tongues of fire on the disciples heads accompanied the speaking of foreign languages and it is rather up to you to show that this precedent was not continued if it is the same gift today. God does not change so where does it say that He would change this?

"AS well, what draws you to the conclusion that Paul was talking about 'true and false' tongues... two types???"

This is my understanding of the text. Would you like to explain how the Greek disagrees?

"p.s.
There is little discernment in all people."

Please do not misquote me - I said tongue speakers.

Brenda

 2010/5/17 5:36
EverestoSama
Member



Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

This is more than likely not the best place to introduce ones self, however, my name is Grant and I've been lurking this site's forums for about a year and a half. I had purposed not to register, and to just read others wisdom for the most part, but I thought that I might give an interesting account that relates to this matter.

Though I can't honestly expound on anything anyone else has said, a few years back something happened to my father that we both found quite interesting. Maybe eight years back or so we were doing inner city ministry in Los Angeles, taking most of our outreach to the neighborhoods that most of the people deemed too unsafe to reach out to, and maybe rightly so, as one of the young girls who was with us was actually separated from our group and raped. We were in places like South Central, Watts, and Compton which would probably only ring a bell if you're from southern California. Anyway, that year we were actually given a bit of a unique opportunity. We had quite a number of people from these neighborhoods make a commitment to Christ, and they wanted to be baptized. Because of the rather large number of people though, we weren't entirely sure how to go about this. In short however, we were able to get a fair number of buses and pick up all the people who wanted to be baptized and take them down to Santa Monica beach and baptize them there.

My father is a pastor and also a bus driver, so he was able to help out with both areas that day. I was there, however I was only around 16 years old at the time, so I was mostly just a spectator, though it was quite a site to behold.

So here we had many ministers from churches in the area who said they would come out and help baptize the new converts.
Now, there was a pastor from a certain denomination, who shared the view that tongues simply were not for today. So here he is standing in the Pacific Ocean baptizing new converts, and then all of a sudden, one guy goes under the water, and when he comes up, he's speaking in tongues.

Now, it's speculative who was more shocked; the man who had never read the Bible or been to church, and prior to just a few days earlier had been living a life in total darkness and sin, and now couldn't figure out what was happening to him. Or the minister who didn't believe in that sort of thing, and wasn't sure how to tell the guy that the experience that was happening to the new convert he didn't believe was real, and couldn't possibly "still be for today".

Now I can't remember if my dad was standing next to the man when this happened, or the guy told him this when he came out of the water, or whatever. Either way it doesn't matter. I'm sure someones opinion on the gift of tongues was challenged that day.

I believe that tongues are well and active for today just like they were in past days, HOWEVER.....

HOWEVER, (and I wish I could make the however bigger)many of what's being seen today, and what many people give the name "tongues" to, is not the real deal, and is either the result of their own imagination, or a counterfeit spirit.

I went one time to a Catholic meeting where they were all praying in tongues (quite possibly to Mary), and I've heard that there are groups of Catholics who pray in tongues to Mary. There are Mormons who "pray in tongues", and if you go out to the bush in Africa you can find witch doctors who will pray in tongues, and the scary thing is, it sounds VERY similar to what you'll hear the Pentecostals doing. I mean, if you ever flip on the television to a certain channel, you can find men in ten thousand dollar suits and their female counterparts praying in what many refer to as "tongues". I highly doubt the Holy Spirit has a thing to do with these people, unless of course it's a counterfeit deceiving spirit sent by the Lord as a judgement. So this gift especially takes some major discernment.

Anyway, there's been more wisdom and Biblical exegete so far in this thread than I can offer, so I just wanted to say hello and add my personal experience. -Grant

 2010/5/17 10:24Profile





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