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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Does anyone know of a solid biblical response to MacArthur's sermons on tongues and spiritual gifts?

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 Re:

Quote:
Tongues was for a sign to the Jews at that time and that is why Paul practised it as well as the other apostles at Pentecost.



Why was it that tongues was a sign to the Jews only?

After all, wouldn't miracles be enough for a sign, why the speaking in tongues?

To what importance was laid upon the Apostles this gift that had to be done away with in the first century?

And not only that, if the gift was only for a sign for the Jew why were the gentiles included in this when Cornelius and all his house spoke in tongues after they received the holy Ghost?

And what about the Samaritans, half breeds of Israel and Syria. They heard the good news received it but were not filled with the holy Ghost until Peter and John came down to lay hands on them and they too had manifestations as Simon the Sorcerer offered money for power. If there was no manifestations, Simon would not have coveted the power, he saw something.

The Samaritans were not Jews, yet there was something going on for Simon the witch to offer money. We can positively assume from other account witnesses that it was prophesying and speaking in tongues. Acts 19:1-6

 2010/5/15 15:14
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re: Perfection?

krautfrau wrote:

Quote:
The `perfect` is not scripture or Jesus. It is perfection, that is, the perfection of ourselves - entire sanctification. Paul is telling us that when this occurs, love remains, tongues cease, but knowledge and prophesy enlarge.



The basis for krautfrau believing that tongues have ceased all hinges on her interpretaion above that we obtain 'entire sanctification'(perfection). This begs the question, do you really believe your are perfect? Really!!
So Paul the Apostle obviously was not, as he still needed to 'speak in tongues more than you all'. Also he told us in Phillippians 3:12 that he Had NOT obtained perfection.
Are you more sanctified than the apostles? DO you have more power or closer walk with the Lord?

That said the explanations already given are correct that say this perfection is in context clearly the position we will be in when we go to be with Jesus and see Him face to face.

I'm sorry, but your position just does not hold water.


_________________
Dave

 2010/5/15 16:15Profile









 Re:

Heydave

I was not clear in that quote - tongues have nothing to do with perfection, knowledge and prophecy do though.

You have taken Phil 3:12 out of context. It is clear that Paul did claim perfection in verse 15. The other perfection he spoke of was the resurrection from the dead.

I have been entirely sanctified yes but not at present.

others

you will have to give me some time to catch up.

Brenda

 2010/5/15 17:29









 Re:

Die KraftFrau schreibt:
You are absolutley right on some of it but not in the conclusions you come to. You have added those yourself.

g:
Look at the text again.

The conclusions were drawn before the Lord spoke to me...it was from the head and not the heart at first.

A response to this was written this morning, and i don't know how, but it dissappeared from the thread. So, the following is encapsulation:

The end note was, i still dare you.


Re:
1) If we are dealing in our own reasonings, there is no telling what we come up with. (Seek and cry out loud while He may be found and He is near. Isaiah 55:7 might be said clearer be said as "Let the one-who-acts-in-twisted-ways-against God's ways leave these things behind, and let the one-one who-walks-because-of-vain-imagined-rationalizations turn his back on what he thinks." Doing the outloud reading, flooding consciousness throuhg the eye and ear gates, there comes an experience akin to being born again again but better (at least for me, and those i have been told to tell this advice).

2) Many think the initial Holy Spirit Baptism is the end of the road. (i.e., "i've been there done that, so there is no way to draw closer to God except through prayer and works...but even thinking this is making the very first infilling/outpouring experience into a work of your own doing...and so your own flesh enters the picture to bind you via petty laws. To date, i can account for 8 infilling outpouring experiences, each more encompassing thaan the former. This is what being filled with the Spirit is all about.

Reading just the first few chapters of Acts as a continous whole, you can see that this happened with some of the first recipients, setting biblical precedent.




Are you fully relying on Him, or are you trying to make the sanctification experience work through your own efforts?

Some try to understand so they can believe something, but that's not what it says: Rom. 10:17

We know that faith bears action in and of His faith(fulness) to do as He promises.

Why don't you do something i have learned to do, with mistakes...but as this process continues towards maturity, the mistakes become far fewer.

Try believing and so doing because you will gain His wisdom, understand towards His ways, and know better what to do as you continue to follow???


One thing that will surely lock shut the windows of heaven is the spirit of unforgiveness. I have learned this the hard way. When rejected or despised, i used to try to cut-and-paste my walk in the Lord, cutting out what i did not like and adding what i thought was to be my blessing. What a tangled web i wove, and holding on to bad feelings about others shut heavens windows. i finally sought forgiveness from those who offended me recognizing i was the problem. I must have offended them in some way for problems to arise. [If i was not there (whatever the time or place) doing as i did, it would not have happened to me (the way it unfolded,) so God has good pleasure and purpose in this...
...and the only right i have -if i am to consistently walk in His Spirit- is to die.]

i now praise and thank God for even the bad things that come along whatever the source so our Father can show Himself strong in the earth. He is just chiseling out the rough spots, conforming me more and more into finer definition towards the image of Jesus Christ.

Now there is thanksgiving over every trial, temptation, and test. The source of adversity is the adversary, but God allows it so that we can walk in greater victories.

Other people or things are not the problem. In our flesh we may see it this way.

Love bless and give to those who attempt to reject you, then see God work beyond all expectations. You will thank and praise Him that much more, knowing that He has written your name in heaven... and the windows stay open.


CIAO!
g
Acts 20:32

p.s. Sorry about the wrong conclusions, but the challenge remains.

p.s.s. Prayers to your benefit continue since the first post was read.

 2010/5/15 18:51









 Re:

TONGUES

As an aside, may I just explain where I come in on this subject. I had already begun to question my Calvinistic position on predestination but I also was having problems because my theology did not fit in with my experience as a believer. I was not able to just think myself in Christ and delivered from the power of sin as I struggled with certain things over which I seemed to have no power over at all. One was that I did not find myself able to love God with my whole heart, I had certain issues with Him, questioning His provision for me and not fully trusting Him, and I came to a crisis where I had to surrender fully to Him. This crisis I later understood to be a necessary step in sanctification and I then grasped that gradual sanctification was not scriptural but a further baptism of the Spirit was necessary.

I no longer belonged in Calvinism but in order to move on to charismatic circles, which seemed to be my only alternative, there was the issue of healing and tongues, but I was halfway there as I no longer a cessationist, now believing in the baptism and the necessity of communication and guidance from a living God through the Holy Spirit. So I approached the study of these subjects, not as one who was looking to defend a position and only seeing what one wanted to see, but a genuine seeking to know the truth and expecting it to come directly from God.

The health issue was for me very important having long term sickness so I spent much time in the sciptures rather than concentrate on others` teachings and I was at an advantage not having any other contact with charismatics so that I could hear God alone. One of the things which really swung it for me, apart from the fact that my first encounter with tongues left my spirit disturbed, which I believe is common and requires one to `talk onself` into accepting the practice as it were, was over the issue as to what the purpose of the gift was. So to answer snufalapagus` question :


"Why was it that tongues was a sign to the Jews only?

After all, wouldn't miracles be enough for a sign, why the speaking in tongues?

To what importance was laid upon the Apostles this gift that had to be done away with in the first century?

And not only that, if the gift was only for a sign for the Jew why were the gentiles included in this when Cornelius and all his house spoke in tongues after they received the holy Ghost?"

We can find the answer to this question in 1Cor 14:22

"Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not, but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them that believe"

This sign for unbelievers or Jews, was spoken of in Isa. 28:11-12

"For with stammering lips (which was known as the language of the Assyrians) and another tongue, will He speak to HIS PEOPLE to whom He had said, This is the rest wherein ye may cause the weary to rest and this is the refreshing, but they would not hear"

So the hearing of strange or foreign languages was a sign of coming judgement from God, and indeed the tongues which came upon the disciples, and do not come upon present day speakers of tongues at their inception were tongues of fire, fire always speaking of judgement. Jews knowing the scriptures well, should have known this to be a warning to them, that the judgement of God had come upon them if they did not accept this Jesus as the Messiah and indeed most of them did not accept Him as Messiah and crucified Him instead.

The coming of tongues or foreign languages was further a sign that Babel was being reversed, that men would be separated no more from God and from each other if they accepted the terms of the new covenant where being made right with God through sanctification was not through works but by faith in Christ as Deliverer and Saviour.

As the church grew, and especially after judgement fell upon the centre of the Jews religion ie Jerusalem, for another sign, it became unecessary for tongues to continue for this reason though there may be a case for the continuation of the gift of foreign languages for a while to spread the gospel.

The link which KingJimmy gave is refuting Cessationists who dispute all of the gifts, and I do not and so most of the argument centers on this rather than just on tongues.

"Yet in the church I had rather speak with five words with my understanding that by my voice, I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue."

"So likewise you, except you utter by the tongue words easy to be understood how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air" 14:9

We must balance the more obscure verses against these ones.

Brenda

 2010/5/16 3:17









 Re:

The 'dark night of the soul" as Martin Luther called it is the place of brokeness. Yes, it happens, but it can be avoided. It is all a matter of how you approach God:

II Sam. 22:
26 With the merciful thou wilt shew thyself merciful, and with the upright man thou wilt shew thyself upright.

27 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with the froward thou wilt shew thyself unsavoury.

28 And the afflicted people thou wilt save: but thine eyes are upon the haughty, that thou mayest bring them down.



Right now you are in a good place, but having come there, it's time for you to be (as in remaining) delivered .


B:
"Why was it that tongues was a sign to the Jews only?

g:At that moment it was, but is that what Paul explains about it in I corinthians?


Many in my family
(nuclear, and as well, both close and distant relations)
are heavily involved in missions...

--we are scattered throughout the world, from China to Germany(Austria) to the America's and several places between--

...in some way or another, both giving and going.
(we are not all charis(matically) oriented as of yet, but that is changing)

Tongues have been recognized to be one of the ways to cause wonder in the unbeliever and fear in those who do not understand. In both cases, many different people in foreign lands have come to Jesus Christ as a result of this given gift used in public.

I have been told accounts by other believer's (usually missionaries) over the years where tongues have been in use and someone who used that language was present and astounded, saved, and/or glorified God through what was said.

Still, that is the secondary purpose of tongues.



B:After all, wouldn't miracles be enough for a sign, why the speaking in tongues?

g: If Jesus Christ's resurrection, and dead saints walking around the Holy City was not enough of a sign, what could top that?

Face it. satan blinds the minds of those who will not believe, whether that is in regards to healing or tongues or salvation... well, any of God's eight expletive redemptive names know in the scriptures.

If someone will not believe something, the god of this world blinds the mind, so it will never be recieved by the ability of reason. It takes the work of God's Holy Spirit to reveal and show the way towards deliverance, wholeness, and/or being kept safe in Jesus Christ.

The whole world is decieved: Rev. 12:9

Tongues in manifestation are a sign, but of what???



Historically and prophetically they are precursor to God's judgement to fall:

The Former Rain--> (30's A.D. and then continued): Jerusalem destroyed 70 A.D.

The Latter Rain--> (1920's and then continued): WW II

The Former and the Latter Rain together--> (very very soon to come, and then end): The end of the age onto the day of the Lord.


A famine for the Word of God is now closing.

Renewal and regeneration is occuring in various places more and more frequently worldwide.

A final outpouring is coming, and i see the storm clouds gathering...

...yet there must first be a shifting and shaking of the nations...

...and where sin abounds, grace will much more abound.


B:
To what importance was laid upon the Apostles this gift that had to be done away within the first century?

g: Since it 'was done away with', how come so many recieved and continue to recieve this Gift from God after that one day of Pentecost?


Yes, there is the false; but, the question to ask is is not whether someone is pretending or possessed, but rather, "why would the serpent provoke and endue counterfeits if this gift were so useless and of no effect?"




Tongues are not first for onlookers. They can, or may not be used as a sign in public; however, those who do not use this gift will never experience the benefits God gives through opening the mouth and speaking forth the praises of God without our thinking obstructing untainted praise and prophecy-->communication back to God His own awe inspiring thoughts, words, and deeds... whether past, present, or future.

Tongues are 1st for the believer to worship God beyond what our own reason can comprehend. (do you realize that the word most often translated as "prayer" is actually the word "worship".) Speaking in tongues is us yeilding our mouth to the Holy Spirit, then worshipping God without our mind's interference.

Whether somebody else hears this worship or not is up to God's providence.

We know the scriptures clarify that God inhabits the praises of those in His covenant with him. Praise through tongues in worship charges (edifieth> builds up, strengthens) the believer with God's presence in God's way that he desires to be worshipped.

Tongues strengthen the believer through the joy of the Lord:
binding up the broken,
setting at liberty the captive,
and proclaiming the work of our Great God.

Rev. 19:10

Agape:
You are with me
as i with you
in prayers towards
your liberty,
g
Acts 20:32

"The kingdom then is not for weaklings, waverers, and compromisers... It is not for Balaam, the rich young ruler, Pilate, and Demas... It is not won by means of deferred prayers, unfulfilled promises, broken resolutions and hesitant testimonies. It is for strong and sturdy men like Joseph, Nathan, Elijah, Daniel, Mordecai, and Peter... Stephen... and Paul. And let us not forget such valiant women as Ruth, Deborah, Esther, and Lydia"
~William Hendrickson~


p.s. Without concluding whether tongues are still happening, whether in good or bad ways, why don't you take the passages you find regarding their use, and only write down what effects tongues have on the individual using them, as well as the church gathering, and then onlookers.

p.s.s. I have seen tongues used in conjunction with many of the gifts of the Spirit, but one thing that has not yet been seen is someone typing in tongues.

ps.s.s. I Cor. 14:9---> for myself, i could care less whether the tongue be interpreted for me or not. It is not usually something i should, of neccessity, understand. As long as God understands, and there is no doubt He does, that's what really matters.

cyber-edited: due to my usual ideosyncracies

 2010/5/16 7:45









 Re:

Quote:
"For with stammering lips (which was known as the language of the Assyrians) and another tongue, will He speak to HIS PEOPLE to whom He had said, This is the rest wherein ye may cause the weary to rest and this is the refreshing, but they would not hear"



I truly like your way of reasoning Brenda. I enjoyed reading that.

God calls this stammering lips and another tongue "The Rest".

Tongues are a sign.

We can positively say that the sign that the Rest has come is through stammering lips and another tongue.

On the day of Pentecost Peter stands up and says, "This is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel that in the last days I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh and your sons and daughters shall prophesy.......

[38] Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[39] For the promise (the Rest) is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off (gentiles), even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

It seems to me that there is no indication here from scripture that the reason why the speaking in tongues was given was that impending doom was coming to the Jewish economy. It most certainly did under Nero and Vespasian.

But the sign was to show that the promise to Abraham had come.

I can understand God using something like this. It's so like His character. He takes something that is so lowly, made it to sound like gibberish to the natural mind and yet is a blessing to those that receive it.

We have an influx of international students in our city. I hear their language but to me it's all gibberish. I don't understand it because I don't speak it. But because I don't understand it, does it mean it doesn't exist?

It reminds me of Naaman captain of the King of Syria who had leprosy and he came to Elisha with a great host with him. And Elisha sends his servant, that is insulting. Naaman was looking for a great manifestation to take place.

The Jews in the first century were looking for a messiah that would free them from the tyranny of Rome, and God takes 12 men fills them with the holy Ghost and they speak in a tongue not known to them and this is their deliverance, to enter into His rest. "But with all that, they will not hear".

 2010/5/16 8:49









 Re:

Brenda writes......

"I no longer belonged in Calvinism but in order to move on to charismatic circles, which seemed to be my only alternative, there was the issue of healing and tongues,

"One of the things which really swung it for me, apart from the fact that my first encounter with tongues left my spirit disturbed

Hi Brenda, seems like many of your conclusions is based on encounters you may have had within the "Charismatic," movement. Please realize that there is a whole world out there. There are many "Pentecostals," who have nothing to do with "Charismatics." Many on this very site. Some call themselves "Conservative," Pentecostals, others (some brothers from Poland told me this and I liked it) call themselves "Classic," Pentecostals. What they really mean is that they are Spirit filled , tongues speaking( for the most part as all Spirit filled belivers do not speak in tongues) who stand upon the Word of God and that alone.

Pastor Brian Long, who is Pastor of the Southern Baptist church that we had the sermonindex revival conference in Barnsdall last year, is a Spirit filled, tongue speaking believer. So there is a vast array of brothers and sisters out there, Spirit filled, tongue speaking believers who have absolutely nothing to do with Charismatic, in fact they would probably consider it an insult to have that title put upon them. I would count myself in that number.

What I am enouraged about is that you are undoubtedly on a journey and that journey is not over. Keep seeking sister. You have been priveledged to hear some awesome and great advice from mature belivers on this thread, some of whom I know personally. Listen and consider what they say, for I would say, without a doubt, that God is speaking to you through them. We cannot dictate how we hear from God, if God is speaking to you through these men, it would be unwise not to very carefully consider what they say. I am praying for you sister.........brother Frank

 2010/5/16 11:05









 Re:


snufalapagus

"We can positively say that the sign that the Rest has come is through stammering lips and another tongue."

Not so. The sign of tongues was the sign for the Jews to repent as the judgmement of God had come.

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent,"

If they ignored this sign that they should repent, and most of them did, then the judgement of God would fall on them which it did.

 2010/5/16 12:40
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3396
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: people people


Krautfrau or anyone else for that matter will not believe that gift is for today unless the Lord opens her or their eyes. Trust Him to do what you can't in her and others, and if He doesn't, then He doesn't!

God bless us all!!


_________________
Lisa

 2010/5/16 14:35Profile





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