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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Does anyone know of a solid biblical response to MacArthur's sermons on tongues and spiritual gifts?

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 Re:

brother Frank

Yes indeed to be at the feet of Jesus is to have the rivers of life poured out from us. There is nothing in comparison in this life and is worth whatever sacrifice it takes. It is my one desire to be dwelling there for eternity.

"Do you claim to have the same knowledge of God as He has of you? God knows every part of you, do you know every part of God? The perfect is describing our state in heaven, that is why it is not a person.........brother Frank"

Many say that we cannot attain such knowledge of God in this life....but it is seeing Him face to face as the scripture reports of the faith of Moses or face to feet too, but the meaning is to know as one is known and it is impossible to love someone you do not know intimately with the love depicted in Song of Songs.

It is in this life that we attain our spiritual standing for all of eternity and if we do not know Christ in this way He will not know us in the next life.

 2010/5/15 3:52









 Re:

KingJimmy

"What they taught and practice was to be followed."

They practised circumcision.

Tongues was for a sign to the Jews at that time and that is why Paul practised it as well as the other apostles at Pentecost. History bears this out as the later letters did not say anything at all about tongues and the early church fathers did not mention it nor Augustine and the church since till the beginings at Asusa Street when it become accepted. It was only found before that point along with other manifestations on the fringes of true revivals but the revivalists did not accept it as from God.

The other gifts however were not for a sign and they continue to this day. Prophecy continues and revelation did not end with the canon of scripture. God continues to speak to His people the way He always did in the past. He safeguards us though so that what He says is not contradicted by the scriptures. Cessationists however, have a relationship with a book and that is why they are dried up springs.

 2010/5/15 4:22









 Re:

Phanetheus

"guess you will just have to keep on reading all those books and teachers and trying to sort everything out instead of trusting His Spirit to teach you without all the drivel of the cemetarians."

What I know has not come from books but has been revealed directly to me by the Holy Spirit. Where else have you seen it said that only tongues ceased and the other gifts continued?

"Do you realize how much doctrine created through Roman catholocism is still part and parcel of most protestant demonations, orthodox or not???"

I am outside of Protestantism as were the early Quyakers, recognisings its non scriptural doctrines.

But thanks for your advice and perceptiveness. It goes with what Frank said about my tears being poured out at the feet of Jesus,

You are absolutley right on some of it but not in the conclusions you come to. You have added those yourself.

I am indeed in a very dry place and have lost the presence of my Saviour. It is callled the dark night of the spirit and through it I have had everything taken away from me including all of my family. I count all things as gain however in the kingdom of God but there is a time of mourning and of sitting on the heap in sackcloth and ashes before the glory of the Lord comes. Suffering is for the growth of the spirit and of closer intimacy with Christ. So you are correct to pick that up and thanks for saying it.

However you are not right in assuming that I have not known the baptism of the Spirit and the endument with power that was so strong in me that people in my presence would be immediatly convicted of their sins and start pouring them out to me even though I had said nothing about them. Had I not known the baptism I would not be teachings its necessity.

I have sought to be restored but the Lord has not granted that yet so I wait on Him with trust and love.

I am persecuted as I said, my family were the worst and yes I do have two people who come to me for spiritual counselling although they understand that I am not able to walk in my profession at present.

I would value your prayers that the Lord will come.

Brenda


 2010/5/15 4:40
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
They practised circumcision.




Hold on a minute. If you are referring to outward circumcision of the flesh the only time Paul would have allowed for it was to prevent giving offense to the Jews. This is the primary subject in Acts 15. There are numerous passages that deal with this including Romans 4:11, Galatians 5:2, etc.

Circumcision of the heart is another matter. (Romans 2:29)

The Church Fathers are no place to look for many important subjects because after the death of John the churches almost immediately began moving in a non-New Testament form of leadership, etc. The scriptures are our authority. By the time Augustine arrives on the scene Constantine had already made Christianity the religion of the state. At Nicea in 325 the leaders took Tertullians Trinity formula three persons one substance (treis Hypostases, Homoousios) and moved farther away from the prophetic. It could be that the Montanists in the middle 2nd century had cause a stigma on tongues, the prophetic in general, etc. because of their false notions, but that is speculation. The Jews had no desire for God to rule over them and the established Universal Church soon followed their pattern.

As for tongues being an ongoing sign to the Jews I would point out that in the circles Paul was moving in there were very few Jews around. He had already told the people that if there is no interpretation to the tongues that people would say they were 'mad'; this would include Jews. But if what you are saying is true there are many Jews today that would likewise need to witness the sign. I don't see this as the purpose of tongues, but rather as Paul explains on I Cor. 14.





_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2010/5/15 7:14Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I am indeed in a very dry place and have lost the presence of my Saviour. It is callled the dark night of the spirit and through it I have had everything taken away from me including all of my family. I count all things as gain however in the kingdom of God but there is a time of mourning and of sitting on the heap in sackcloth and ashes before the glory of the Lord comes. Suffering is for the growth of the spirit and of closer intimacy with Christ. So you are correct to pick that up and thanks for saying it.

Quote:
I have sought to be restored but the Lord has not granted that yet so I wait on Him with trust and love.



Brenda: Might I suggest that the concept of God somehow putting us through a "dark night of the soul", or a "desert experiece" is not a Biblical concept for a new covenant believer. The very fact that Jesus ascended and sent the comforter, the Holy Spirit, the paraklete (the one who comes alongside us and empowers us) is the evidence that God does not put us through these experiences. The word tells us to draw near to God and He WILL draw near to us. 1 John 2:27 tells us that the anointing of the Holy Spirit, once received, abides forever, comes to permanently dwell to never depart. 1 Cor. 2 tells us that this abiding presence of the Holy Spirit gives us knowledge of the very mind of Christ, of the spiritual riches that he has prepared for His body. The latter half of Jesus teaching recorded in John 14 and the first half of John 15 are one continuous thought. In this teaching, Jesus says that He has spoken these things to us that His joy might remain in us and dwell in us in fullness. We must come out of the old testament in this area because the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit changed everything.

If we are not experiencing joy, if it seems like our prayers are not effective, if it seems that we are in a dry place and cannot get out of it, the problem does not lie with God. He is not doing it to us. It may be the enemy warring against us. It may be that we ourselves are in a place of disobedience. I am not necessarily talking about blatant things, although these things might be taking place, but rather things that may seem small to us but are big in the spirit. Perhaps deep things in our souls. It may be that we are not listening to God. But it is not God that is doing it, it is not His fault so to speak. He gave us the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit. Being full of the Spirit of God and spiritual dryness and dark nights of the soul are mutually exclusive. Where one exists, the other cannot.

This is not to say we don't sometimes go through times that are trying spiritually for the reasons I listed, or other reasons. But is it through the power of the Holy Spirit that we triumph over these times, that we come out in victory. At times we need our brothers and sisters to come alongside and help us. God intended His body to be dependent on Him and interdependent on each other with every joint supplying. But this dark night is definitely not a thing sent from God. It is a thing to be warred against through the word of God and the power of the Holy Spirit.

I am very encouraged that we are having this discussion on SI in the tone that I see in this thread. Great discussion, full of the word of God, full of love, with no animosity or angst against anyone. Praise God. I am praying for you this AM in America Brenda.


_________________
Travis

 2010/5/15 8:35Profile









 Re:

Brenda,

Following is a transliteration from the Recieved Text:

I Cor. 13:8-10

Agape never falls-out-of-reach-perishing; but, prophecies (are-)renendered-inoperative; if languages, they pause,-not-always-operating; if knowledge, (it-shall-be-) abolished-becoming-unnecessary. For in part we percieve-and-understand, and in (these) piecemeal-portions we prophecy...
But when full-maturity shows-forth-publicly, then piecemeal-portions become-idle-and-cease.

Addendum: Now knowing this, the following verse makes much more sense: I Cor. 13:11

CIAO!
g
Acts 20:32


edited: corrections towards clarity

 2010/5/15 9:41
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

They practised circumcision.



Actually, the apostles did not teach and practice the necessity of circumcision as being the pattern for the church to follow. Paul clearly taught against being circumcised. The book of Galatians was written for this purpose.

Quote:

Tongues was for a sign



Indeed, but such is merely ONE reason. But speaking in tongues was also done for personal and corporate edification, to build the body up into conformity with the image of Christ. The gifts were not merely for signs, though they do serve such a purpose. Rather, their primary purpose is for the edification of the saints, though, they do serve the purpose of being signs for unbelievers, including the Jews.

Quote:

History bears this out as the later letters did not say anything at all about tongues and the early church fathers did not mention it nor Augustine and the church since till the beginings at Asusa Street when it become accepted.



Paul's letters were occasional letters, written in response to specific needs. Thus, if issues about the gifts of the Spirit did not need to be brought up to other churches, he did not bring them up. The reason they were brought up in 1 Corinthians is because it was an issue.

In 1 Corinthians Paul dedicates a little over 4 chapters to the pattern he expected the churches to follow when they assembled together (1 Corinthians 10-14). Indeed, in 1 Corinthians 11:1-2, he says these things he is teaching in this letter are in imitation of Christ, and are the traditions he delivered to them, and expects them to follow. In 1 Corinthians 14:5, Paul says he wishes everybody in the Church would have the gift of tongues, just as he speaks in tongues. And to wrap everything up, in 1 Corinthians 14:37-40, Paul says that these things are the Lord's commandments, and he says if people do not recognize these things as such, they in turn should not be recognized.

So, even though the issue of tongues is only mentioned in Paul's epistle to the Corinthians (and quite a few times at that), the theology of Paul set forth in 1 Cor. 10-14 makes it very evident that Paul expected the things he taught in these chapters to be the model the assembled Church was to follow, and such was the commandment of the Lord. Was it just the pattern for the Corinthians? No. It was the pattern for all the Churches, even down to our day. Indeed, to forbid anybody to speak in tongues during a service, as some who hold various degrees of cessationist view points do, would be contrary to the apostolic teaching of Paul.

Additionally, it is completely false to say that there are no mention of tongues in the early church fathers, and that it was entirely without practice until Azusa Street. My brother, I think you are saying such out of ignorance. In fact, speaking in tongues was a regular part of the Church, with the rest of the gifts of the Spirit, until about the time the Montanist movement arose and was stamped out. And even after that period, we see testimony to its usage (though, very spotty) in various movements in Church history.

In fact, if you wish to get historical about this, there is more testimony to people speaking in tongues in church history than there are people attesting to the doctrine of justification by faith. Nobody taught the doctrine of justification by faith alone, through grace alone, for over 1,000 years of church history. But, such doesn't make a doctrine or practice false, simply because of a spotty record.

Here is a quick link if you wish for a real quick survey on the topic of speaking in tongues throughout church history: http://brothermel.com/tonguesthroughoutchurchhistory.aspx

Quote:

Prophecy continues...



I am glad you believe prophecy does continue to this day. With that said then, it should not be hard to believe that speaking in tongues continues to this day as well. Why? Because as 1 Corinthians 14 and Acts 2 makes clear, speaking in tongues is simply a form of prophetic speech. An unusual form of prophetic speech, but a form of prophetic speech just the same.

Quote:

Cessationists however, have a relationship with a book and that is why they are dried up springs.



I'm not sure I would quite go this far, but I definitely share a similar sentiment.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2010/5/15 11:11Profile









 Re:

twayneb

"a "dark night of the soul", or a "desert experiece" is not a Biblical concept for a new covenant believer."

Not so. Even Jesus straight after He was baptised in the Spirit was led into the wilderness where He was severely tested, and lost the presence of God when He was on the cross, and Paul disappeared for 3 years and who knows what he went through. If we are baptised into His death, then we suffer with Him. Job`s comforters brought him the same message you are giving me. Of course we come out in victory. If one is persecuted then one knows that one is on the right road as the world loves those who are part of it.
Thanks for your prayers, they are appreciated.

Brenda

 2010/5/15 13:58
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Suffering with Christ is not at all the same thing as Christ making us suffer. Christ in the wilderness was tempted, not of God, but of the enemy. He overcame through the power of the Holy Spirit and through the power of the word of God which He used as the sword of the Spirit to defeat the enemy. It was not a dark night of the soul in which God withdrew His presence, rather Jesus was led into the wilderness by the Holy Spirit within Him and overcame through that presence within Him.

You are right, Paul spend several years out of the public and historical eye and we do not know what happened to him other than when he stepped on the scene and began to minister it was with the power and authority of the Holy Spirit within him.

Being baptized into His death and suffering with Him are not synonymous with God withdrawing His presence or with God somehow putting us through a time of not sensing His movings or His Holy Spirit. It is not synonymous with "dry times". Persecution will come, but does not come at God's behest. Persecution comes from the enemy to try to get us to back down from the word of God (Matt. 13), and to try to get us to be offended in Christ and give up. It is meant to destroy us and comes from the one who hates the fact that we walk full of the power of the Holy Spirit.

Job did not have the abiding and indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. He lived and operated under the old covenant. When Christ ascended and sent the comforter, everything changed. Now we can become the manifested sons of God in this earth walking in the power of His Holy Spirit, doing the works that He did. It is the whole purpose of the comforter that as He is, so should we be in this present world. No matter the persecution or attack of the enemy, 1/3 of us (our spirit) is wall to wall Holy Ghost and we can walk in the joy of the Lord and experience His power and presence every single day because God's Holy Spirit dwells IN US.

I am not trying to say that we will not have problems. We are bucking the trend, fighting a real enemy, and as a result we WILL have persecution and spiritual battles. Our cars will probably break down just like our unsaved neighbors'. We live in a natural and fallen world. I am saying that in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him. If I am martyred for my faith, I will do so full of the power of the Holy Spirit and joy. Not that I am anything, but I know whose I am and He has filled me with His Spirit.

I guess I am just trying to tell you that the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit changes everything. It brings us to a place where we walk in His power, not our own.

God bless you today Brenda


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Travis

 2010/5/15 14:19Profile
AbideinHim
Member



Joined: 2006/11/26
Posts: 3499
Louisiana

 Re: Does anyone know of a solid biblical response to MacArthur's sermons on tong

I am very thankful that countless belivers all over the world that have experienced being filled with the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, and manifesting spiritual gifts did not read John McCarthur's book, and therefore did not realzie that these spiritual gifts have ceased to exist. Thank God they believe that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. "AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS" (Acts 2:17).

One would really have to be blind to what is going on in the world today as well as to ignore the fact that instead of these spiritual gifts ceasing to exist, they are actually being restored to the church, and this has been going on especially in the last 100 years or so in particular with the fire falling at Azusa Street.

Those that believe the teaching of Cessationism will miss out on God's best for their life. Because they do not believe that God still heals, they will not have faith for healing, so the best that they can do is to pray a "if it be thy will, please heal me". They will go to a church that does not believe in the gifts of the Spirit, and therefore will be robbed from the benefits of the gifts which the Spirit gives to build up the Body of Christ.

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." (Mark 16:17,18).

"Truly, truly, I say to you, He that believes on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go to my Father." (John 14:12).

Most of the church has not entered in to the fulness of the above scriptures. Regardless of man's doubt and unbelief on the subject: "let God be found true, though every man be found a liar."

Mike



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Mike

 2010/5/15 15:07Profile





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