| Re: |
Of course we must have faith but I have tested these manifestations you find at charismatic meetings and they were not of God.
Repentance must be the first thing, there has to be a turning away from sin for God to "come" so to speak to manifest Himself through His Body.
I have gone to many Pentecostal churches, I went to one Charismatic, which is by the way Roman Catholic. And I have never seen any manifestations of barking, slithering around on the floor like a snake, Tweeting like a bird or any other jungle church activity.
I have heard people trying to mimic the speaking in tongues, like "dadadadadadada", or "mamamamamma", and these are all foolish, but someone had told them that that was speaking in tongues, probably your charismatic friends. But the language is angelic and it's not meant to be understood by the human mind. It's meant to be a private prayer language as Paul was trying to instruct the Corinthians. And he wanted them to love people instead of boasting at what they had. Hence, "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels and have not charity, I am nothing". He wasn't doing away with the gift, he was telling them do everything decently and in order. Sinners are coming into the Church and all they are hearing is gibberish and they will think you are mad, and rightly so. However, if everyone remains quiet or worship quietly, a message will come forth in his tongue or an angelic language that either the person giving the message in an angelic language will interpret, or someone else in the congregation will. And the sinner will conclude that God is in you and worship God.
I have heard from numerous sources that a non English speaking or very limited English speaking person would come into an English congregation and hear a message given by the Spirit of God through a believer telling this foreigner the great wonderful things of God in his own language. And the person giving the message had no idea he was speaking his language. He thought he was just speaking in the angelic language. And he would go up to the person who gave the message and would speak in his own mother tongue and realized that this person can't speak his lingo, which again, causes him to give God thanks that of a truth, God is in you.
| 2010/5/14 10:56|
| Re: |
Rather than relying on experiences which can be counterfeited, or hearsay, especially on this issue which can lead to great deceptions, we must understand what the scripture teaches and it clearly teaches that tongues were for a sign for unbelieving Jews that the prophecies in the OT were being fulfilled and Babel was being reversed. That understanding does not apply today with pagans. I have never heard of a pagan being converted through hearing tongues. Do you have a reference of one? They rather are shocked.
When Paul says in verese 13 though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, he is saying, that even though he could (and did) speak many tongues of men and even of angels and had not love. He was using hyperbole. It was a common saying in those times, using it this way.
I see that you have a more balanced view than most. It is also strange why there are so many congregations that are not keeping to the scriptures as you clearly aim to do.
| 2010/5/14 11:33|
| Re: |
I like your answers to Kraut, they are wise and balanced and I totaly agree with what you have said up till now.
"I absolutely agree with you on the miraculous and am not a cessationsist but tongues will cease it says but the other gifts continued."
I think that this statement has been ably proved by many on this thread to be absolutely inncorrect and is a pre-text. Sadly many a pre-text has been used to fool and mis-lead people. A famous one is "By His stripes you are healed." This is used by the Word of faith movement to lead many down the erroneous path that there should be no sickness in the Body of Christ.
It is cleat that Kraut is very uncomfortable with tongues. I think that is fair enough, the problem comes when we try to bend Scripture to our own personal predjucies.
God has given His church gifts, and for thr building up of the church and for edification. When we say that we dont want or need them, it might be wise to step back and see what we are actually saying. To argue counterfiet as a reason for avoiding the gifts is to throw the "baby out with the bathwater."
I personaly believe that almost everything that has happened within the Catholic Charismatic movement has been counterfiet. That is just my personal opinion. I would never dream of describing myself as Charismatic.
Barking like dogs and writhng like snakes makes me sick to my stomoch. The whole laughter movement was deeply disturbing to me. Dominionism is also very disturbing. Benny Hinn and all peddelers of the Gospel is equally disturbing. So, when one looks at the maddness of the Charismatic movement, one is not surprised that people may come to false conclusions about the genuine gifts of God as written about in the Word of God. And of course it does not take a rocket scientist to know that this is exactly what the enemy wants. He does not want Christians to walk in the power of God, the power to penetrate hard hearts, the power to speak a word of knowledge to someone, he wants none of that so he floods the "Penetcostal," world with evry king of conterfiet.
I believe Kraut has give one of the most honest replies. She has the courage of her convictions to say this is of the devil. I believe her to be very wrong, and also this to be a very dangerous thing to say, but she obviously feels very strongly about it..........brother Frank
| 2010/5/14 12:48|
| Re: |
I don't quite understand tongues in the context of the continuing gifts dialogue. Not having seen the demonstration of the gift, my question is does the manifestation of this gift actually occur where a known language is spoken as in the original Acts manifestation or are we speaking of a secret language or both? Sorry, I just haven't seen it happen before so I'm at the least uninformed. Anticipating the answer, why has the known foreign language gift apparently ceased given some of the analysis of 1 corinthians 7?
As I was growing up, tongues and interpretation was the one gift that I saw in manifestation more than any other. My Great Grandfather once traveled to Mexico to minister. He did not know Spanish at all, yet stood and under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit delivered an entire sermon in flawless Spanish.
I don't believe tongues are limited to an environment in which someone knows the language spoken, but that does occasionally occur. My Great Grandfather was operating in the gift of tongues in a context that did not require interpretation. Interpretation would be required only where others did not know the tongue and as a result could not understand.
I often pray in tongues. It is not the ministry gift of tongues, but is another language all the same.
I very much respect Krautfrau for her honesty as well, but would like to ask a question. To be scripturally consistent must we not also say that knowledge has ceased and that prophecy has failed? I see no way to separate these three. Here we see three of the nine gifts listed in this letter. If one is no longer valid, must we not also invalidate the other two listed in this verse as well? In fact verse 9 then reiterates prophecy and knowledge and gives them as specific examples of that which is done away with when that which is perfect is come, not mentioning tongues again in that verse. It is just something to consider.
Frank's statement is cliche, but good. Don't throw the baby out with the baby's dirty bathwater. If someone abused teaching and taught false doctrine, we would not then say that teaching must be invalid. We would not abandon teaching because someone taught error. Likewise tongues and the gifts of the Spirit. In my opinion, the idea that any of these things has passed away is scripturally tenuous at very best, relying on very strained interpretations of one or perhaps two verses. In my experience, tongues as well as the rest of the gifts are valid and viable works of the Holy Spirit among the members of the body of Christ to manifest His love and compassion for others as we minister and to edify and build up the body.
| 2010/5/14 13:22||Profile|
| Re: Does anyone know of a solid biblical response to MacArthur's sermons on tong|
I haven't read all the posts, just the first one. But a good systematic case for the opposing position is given in Systematic Theology by Wayne Grudem. He argues against the cessationist position, but respectfully.
| 2010/5/14 13:58|
This world is not my home anymore.
| Re: |
***That understanding does not apply today with pagans. I have never heard of a pagan being converted through hearing tongues. Do you have a reference of one? They rather are shocked.***
I do, I do!! At the jail we minister at, there was a woman walking through while I was asking if there was any sick among them and several pointed to this woman and said she had bronchitis and she stopped and said what? I asked if she was sick and she said yes. I asked if we could pray for her and she bowed her head and I said, no, lay hands on you and pray. She said, OK. Well, my friend and I both prayed and then we started praying in tongues. She never said anything but thank you and walked off. We never saw her the next week.
Three months later we were walking in and we saw her through the glass smiling as big as you please! We asked her how she was and she said (paraphrased from a year ago), You guys didnt know that I had blood clots in my lungs, about 20 of them, and I was being transferred the day after you prayed for me I had to get x-rayed before transfer and the doctor asked what happened and I said why and he said because there isnt any blood clots in your lungs, not one. Honey, we danced in that jail!! I told her we really didnt have anything to do with it, we were just vessels obeying the Spirit.
Then she went on and said but thats not the best part! She went on, I was raised that tongues wasnt for today and anybody that did, wasnt of God and when you started praying for me in tongues, I got so angry with you guys. The next day when the doctor said there werent any blood clots in my lungs, I knew it was of God. And then to (get transfered back in) here, they had to x-ray me again and those x-rays where clear as a bell too!
God spoke to her through her healing that tongues were of God. It was beautiful how He orchestrated that for an inmate someone who no one pays attention to! I dont know why He chose to do it that way but He did. TO GOD BE ALL THE GLORY
My dad died in 1993, I thought he died from lung cancer but my sister told me last week that he died from blood clots in his lungs. Then I started thinking about this lady I just told you about. No wonder they were constantly x-raying her between different county jails. Personally, I didn't know how bad blood clots were until my sister told me that about my dad.
Anytime God does anything, it's a HUGE MIRACLE!!! This elderly completed Jewish woman at church several years ago used to say, "We gotta hold of the small end of the biggest thing we've ever had a hold of. Hold on tight!" Amen sister!!!
God bless you!!
| 2010/5/14 14:19||Profile|
| Re: |
Taken from the encyclopedia,
The term pagan is a Christian adaptation of the "gentile" of Judaism, and as such has an inherent Abrahamic bias
1 Corinthians 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
Paul doesn't differentiate between a Jew or Gentile here, but as far as God is concerned He concluded all to be under sin. So we can be safe in saying that this person is a sinner whether he be a Jew or a Gentile.
I suppose we could say that in Chapter 13 that Paul was using a common saying of the day. I could give ear to that. However, since we believe that most of the writings that Paul wrote were inspired seeing that he is the appointed Apostle to the gentiles by our Lord Jesus Christ, it's necessary to hear what the Holy Spirit is saying regarding it.
1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
When you consider these instruments, how they only have one dull noise. To God, I've become nothing more than a dull noise. There is no music, nothing to soothe, just smashing metals, that's probably why heavy metal music is no good. :-)
This is what happens when we don't allow the Love God that has shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is in us to manifest. We become dull instruments that need tuning. There is nothing wrong with sounding brass or tinkling cymbals when they all act together with the rest of the band, it's when they act alone.
Also another thing about these instruments that is coming to mind is that we put ourselves up on a pedestal and have someone sound the brass and smash the cymbal so to speak for our entrance. We see that today in Hollywood preachers. With great pomp and show they declare their gifts and yet they have no love for the Church. To God they are dull, their prayers don't reach the top of their roof. Oh yes, God will work through the gift, but the gift is not their salvation and in the end, they may lose even that if they don't repent.
And believe me when I say, I used to think that if the gifts would cause me to err, I did not want them. I prayed that way for many years. But Paul's admonition was for us to 1 Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. And I was being selfish not driven by love but fear of being deceived. I began to feel the heart of God desiring to impart unto me spiritual gifts. When we embrace the cross and know that our life is hid in Him, there is nothing to fear.
1 Corinthians 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
Does not the Church need edification? Does it not need exhortation? Does it not need comfort? And if yes, than we need to prophesy more. We need this gift in operation.
| 2010/5/14 14:34|
| Re: |
Lysa, that was amazing. I was warmed with joy reading that. Thank you very much for sharing that testimony.
| 2010/5/14 14:43|
This world is not my home anymore.
| Re: |
***Admittedly, the Charismatic movement had many counterfeits and scandals, but the operation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is a non-negotiable truth. ***
Amen and amen! I liked that, A non-negotiable Truth!
***The gifts of the Holy Spirit is in fact not a luxury or a denominational divider but essential for doing God's will and even for the survival of the church
- I am too weak to live my Christian life without the power and gifts of the Spirit. ***
As well, the church without the gifts and the power of the Spirit is too weak and that is why we are in the present state we are, without the Spirit in operation the man-made church has had to resort to their own power of programs, light shows, intimidations, comedies in the pulpit, manipulations, and guilt trips to keep the people where they think they need to be and doing what they think they need to be doing.
Also, Id like to add that all through the Bible God has shown his people who He was through signs and wonders. Mark 16.16, 2 Cor 12.12 and Hebrews 2.4 speak of God confirming" His word and testifying to His people through signs and wonders.
God bless us all to have everything spiritually that He wants for us on this side of heaven before we die!!
| 2010/5/14 14:44||Profile|
| Re: |
"To be scripturally consistent must we not also say that knowledge has ceased and that prophecy has failed? I see no way to separate these three. Here we see three of the nine gifts listed in this letter. If one is no longer valid, must we not also invalidate the other two listed in this verse as well? In fact verse 9 then reiterates prophecy and knowledge and gives them as specific examples of that which is done away with when that which is perfect is come, not mentioning tongues again in that verse. It is just something to consider."
No I don`t understand scripture as saying that the three must all be treated in the same way. That is not how Paul is putting it.
He says that when the perfect comes, and by the way the Greek shows that it is not a person but a thing, and which I understand it to mean our perfection in this life, then knowledge and prophecy which have been up till now IN PART or in other words, incomplete or here sometimes and sometimes not - just the way one is before one is perfected and entirely sanctified - sometimes being close to God and other times being away from Him - the up and down of the carnal life, when perfection comes, that incompleteness will cease and now it is complete or we become established in the faith. It is the partiality that ceases in the case of knowledge and prophecy. I read this chapter many many times before I saw this.
Tongues however are not dealt with in the same way. He just says they will cease and even the word cease is not the same as used for the cessation of the partiality of knowledge and prophecy.
I believe that the gifts of the Spirit are still functional but the speaking of tongues as it was then, has ceased. I spent a long time over this issue and prayed and asked for the gift and studied it myself in scripture and came to the conclusion that it is not of God.
| 2010/5/14 14:51|