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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Does anyone know of a solid biblical response to MacArthur's sermons on tongues and spiritual gifts?

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Paul being highly educated spoke a number of languages and this is what he saying. He was in a superior position when hearing languages used as a gift as he probably knew already a number of them



What languages do you think Paul spoke? The lingua franca of Rome was Greek. I also am requesting a translation of the passage in question showing Paul's spoke in more languages than ye all.

Again you are confusing the revelation and ignoring what I have said about God-wards glossa as being already revealed in principal in Daniel. The Greek words are a direct match. Bible words have histories and when we want to know what God means by a word we have to follow the history. Scripture interprets itself.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2010/5/21 9:53Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Here are the main translations of I Corinthians 14:18:

NIV
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

New Living Translation (©2007)
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than any of you.

English Standard Version (©2001)
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all;

International Standard Version (©2008)
I thank God that I speak in other languages more than all of you.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I thank God that I speak in other languages more than any of you.

King James Bible
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

American King James Version
I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than you all:

American Standard Version
I thank God, I speak with tongues more than you all:

Bible in Basic English
I give praise to God that I am able to make use of tongues more than you all:

Darby Bible Translation
I thank God I speak in a tongue more than all of you:

I give thanks to my God -- more than you all with tongues speaking (Youngs literal)


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2010/5/21 10:02Profile









 Re:

Robert

The Jews knew the scriptures more than any of us yet they did not know the truth - it must be revealed from on high and a man who is walking in that truth will display the Spirit of God especially towards those who oppose him. I will quote Adam Clarke on Pauls knowldege of languages :

"Verse 18. I speak with tongues more than ye all] He understood more languages than any of them did: and this was indispensably necessary, as he was the apostle of the Gentiles in general, and had to preach to different provinces where different dialects, if not languages, were used. In the Hebrew, Syriac, Greek, and Latin, he was undoubtedly well skilled from his education; and how many he might understand by miraculous gift we cannot tell. But, even literally understood, it is very probable that he knew more languages than any man in the Church of Corinth."

 2010/5/21 10:09









 Re:

Any interpretation of Pauls writings on tongues which does not take into consideration the prevailing culture of ecstatic utterances, and see the necessity of Paul bringing clarity to the Corinthians on the matter of conflict beween the gift of languages and that practise is not engaging properly with the text and is engaging instead in putting their own spin on it to prove their own ideas.

 2010/5/21 10:13
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Brethren,

I would just simply like to clarify something here concerning my bold testimony.

Please, after reading what I wrote again, I don’t want anyone on here to think that I think that I have received more light than anyone else or that my experience is greater than yours.

I also don’t want any of you to think that I think your experience of the Holy Spirit in your life was not from God because you have not spoken in tongues or because your experience was different than mind. There are many different experiences in the bible and among the people of God but as long as we test it by the word of God then we can have confidence.

Any experience that leads us away from the word of God and does not lead us to a sanctified life filled with the fruit of the Holy Spirit and cause us to Love God and his word greater should be rejected. But let us not reject the experience that God does in our life.

The reason I gave my testimony is because I am confident of what God has done in my life and you should be also. We do not need to let Brenda or anyone else slander the experience that God has done in our life. She has her mind made up concerning her conclusions and that is all the light she wants and she will stay with the teachings of men that are in the same camp of her conclusions.

I am so thankful that I am not her pupil not that I don’t believe God saved her or even filled her with a measure of his Spirit but her conclusions as of now will hurt her fellowship with the Lord and of being able to fellowship with many in the body of Christ. I feel sorry for those who get swayed by her teachings. Robert and others have brought out scripture after scripture about tongues in the bible but she only sticks to the teachings of her camp.

We must be willing as people of God to be persecuted for what we believe and be thankful that we could even be counted worthy to suffer for his name sake.


Hebrews 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Hebrews 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
Hebrews 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
Hebrews 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.
Hebrews 13:16 But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased.

Hebrews 11:26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Hebrews 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Matthew 10:24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 27:32 And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.

Matthew 27:39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,

Matthew 27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

Matthew 27:41 Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,

Matthew 27:42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

Matthew 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

Matthew 27:44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

Luke 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

Acts 5:41 And they departed from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer shame for his name.

1 Corinthians 4:10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.

1 Corinthians 4:11 Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;

1 Corinthians 4:12 And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

1 Corinthians 4:13 Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.

2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

1 Peter 4:4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:

1 Peter 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

1 Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

I will continue to praise God for his truth and will by his grace continue to preach and teach the whole counsel of the word of God.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Here is Paul’s testimony that I pray to acquire in my walk with God.

Acts 20:19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
Acts 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,
Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 20:22 And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:
Acts 20:23 Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.
Acts 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.
Acts 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Blessings to all!

 2010/5/21 10:22Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Any interpretation of Pauls writings on tongues which does not take into consideration the prevailing culture of ecstatic utterances, and see the necessity of Paul bringing clarity to the Corinthians on the matter of conflict beween the gift of languages and that practise is not engaging properly with the text and is engaging instead in putting their own spin on it to prove their own ideas.



This sounds like a good argument, but I wish to know one single verse where Paul identifies the behavior of the Corinthians as pagan. I've read your theory and have heard John M's and others, but the scripture does not support this at all. Paul is advising on the right-use of tongues so as to promote the edification of the Body and not just the individual. Is it possible that pagan glossa could edify a Christian? The misuse of tongues was not that it was demonic, but that it was robbing the church of the plurality of edification and reduced it to just the speaker of tongues. This could be remedied with an interpretation. Without interpretation the meetings were not to be interrupted with tongues as it would not edify and would cause a confusion among the unlearned, etc.

As For Adam Clarke, I disagree with him on this passage. It's not the first time and it wont be the last.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2010/5/21 10:32Profile









 Re:

Thanks Robert but I would like to see your source in showing that Paul did not speak in many languages. It sounds impossible to me that someone who sat at the feet of such a noted teacher as Gamaliel would not have been taught many coming from such a melting pot of languages.

I believe that Paul was being very sensitive here over the tongue issue and shows his brilliance in banning uninterpreted tongues from some in the assembly without specifying the ecstatic utterers as not speaking from God. He did not want to turn them away on the grounds of the utterances being from demons, for one thing, it was not his church, he was not a resident leader so there was a limit to what he could do or say

 2010/5/21 10:43
EverestoSama
Member



Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re:

Deleted, joining this thread feels a bit like jumping in mud.

 2010/5/21 11:02Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I believe that Paul was being very sensitive here over the tongue issue and shows his brilliance in banning uninterpreted tongues from some in the assembly without specifying the ecstatic utterers as not speaking from God.



But this does not square with Paul's solution. You are assuming that the utterances were ecstatic when Paul says the only problem is that there is no interpreter. He even told them to pray that they would be able to interpret. There is simply no place where Paul even deals with ecstatic utterance, because if such a thing were present he would have written a Galatians type letter. The threat would have been intolerable.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2010/5/21 11:10Profile









 Re:

Quote:
He did not want to turn them away on the grounds of the utterances being from demons, for one thing, it was not his church, he was not a resident leader so there was a limit to what he could do or say



Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office.

1 Corinthians 5:1-5 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
[2] And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
[3] For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
[4] In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[5] To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Here Paul is not being delicately at all in his authority over this situation. Verse 3 says that he has judged it, and verse 4 is amazing. When you gather together to invoke the name of Jesus with his (Paul) spirit and with the power of Jesus Christ to do such and such.

That is quite the authority to have. Paul included himself in having power and authority with Jesus as if to be on the same level. He was given authority over all the churches of the known Roman world.

"Jesus we know, Paul we know, but who are you?"

 2010/5/21 11:22





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