| Re: |
Wow Everest, I admit I have never really paid attn. to that verse before. I will have to think about that, look it up, context it, and try to digest its implications. Thank you for that brother.
Maybe Watchman Nee was right when he said that the best application of doctrine follows experience. I was repulsed by such a suggestion at first, but have been considering the idea for a few weeks now. (I know that is a can of worms and a possible derailing of the conversation.) Yet I am starting to see a degree of merit to such thinking.
| 2010/5/20 12:01||Profile|
| Re: |
Hello all, there are some good here in this thread worthy of pondering. But my "experience" says this is in the "zone" of becoming personal. I have been wrong before, but just wanted to say and encourage those entering any posts to consider and prayerfully decide wheter their post is upbuilding for the body or just right down personal "i will win this debate".
I encourage to speak about scriptures and test and see and search and discuss them. But i am afraid it will go off the tracks soon. So all kindly take this in consideration.
| 2010/5/20 12:11||Profile|
| Re: |
Brother Christian, I thank you for your exhortation. It has been at least my intention to bring reconciliation if at all possible, but if you feel that I am in any way approaching the ceiling you are mentioning please let me know personally and I will very quickly respond to a personal exhortation, by bowing out. Not as a means of rejecting others, but as a means of rejecting myself.
| 2010/5/20 12:21||Profile|
| Re: |
brother, i am not pointing any finger at you specificly. I just know from the past it is easy when its a topic we are passionate about, it slides through our fingers a bit (still not speaking about you).
So do continue to speak if we an do so in a right way. Growing in the Lord meens in all areas, as we are challenged and how we rule our tongue. To bow out is sometimes what the Lord would have us do, other times it may be to overcome things we may have failed in the past, like getting personal in discussions, accusations etc.
so by prayerfully discern what you should do, you should be able to do what is right. Still not pointing at anyone specific, but from my experience it "feels" it might soon be a thread that we would lock. But i hate that and when some brothers and sisters shared much good things worthy of reading i want to give a heads up. God bless you all
| 2010/5/20 12:56||Profile|
| Re: Gifts|
Being a woman, I have a difficulty in posting this. I have no interest to teach men, do not desire to sin, offend others, or introduce another subject side tracking the subject of this thread. All I can think to say is that this is to the women who are reading this.
SOME SUGGESTIONS that may be helpful:
1. To those that may have been offended, or may have taken offense, or may have been taken in an offense: enter into the fellowship of His suffering (Phil. 3:10). Maybe even count it all Joy.
2. To those that have PICKED UP THE OFFENCE OF ANOTHER: Drop it. I find no scriptural help for you, except to recognize that has occurred and see what results from that. Matthew 5: 23-24 is the Word of God help when you see a brother has something against you (YOU are the occasion of their injury). Mark 11:25 is the scriptural help FOR YOU when someone has sinned against you. So far there are ONLY TWO people involved here. WHEN A THIRD INDIVIDUAL enters into this, a road to divisions opens up and Satan grins wide (fights, gossip, bitterness, etc.). Please think about this. When God breaks through to the TWO and forgiveness and reconciliation flows, the THIRD who was not sinned against (picked up the offense of the other) can be stuck.
3. To those that have a testimony that speaking/praying in tongues is edifying for them: do that and be edified.
4. To those that are cleansed/edified by confessing sins: examine yourself and do that.
5. Galatians 6:1 can be of help in a face to face fellowship. Notice it is also a test as to whether of not YOU are spiritual (have fruit of restoration of the one you go to).
I hear and understand what you are saying. I humbly plead for the continuation of this thread. (Luke 13:8). I have befitted from what has already been posted, so if it closes, I will be grateful for that.
I have wondered if we should have an ADDITIONAL standard post for moderators to insert into some threads that could harm new members/readers, like a standard exhortation:
NOTICE TO THOSE NEW ON SERMONINDEX: If you notice less than Christ-like behavior here, so do others. Over time, posters on this site grow in Christ and behave differently. This site can be a wonderful place to practice how to behave in the body of Christ and be corrected by the Holy Spirit all without damaging people in your local fellowship. As you read this thread, notice what is fruitful behavior/words and what is not. Pray for those in difficulty and yourself before you post. In worst case scenarios we [moderators] lock threads or ban individual posters that have been warned privately.
I find it rather compelling that about a month or two ago I posted James chapter four and said that this is what revival is all about, and not a single person responded.
Bless your heart brother! I did not see that post. I have seen a congregation be cleansed by that chapter (particularly 1-12).
That is why I keep trying to emphasize that the specificity of debate over tongues is NOT the real issue here. Brenda is not denying the gospel of Jesus Christ in any way.
I am sure you heard/read the same thing from Brenda. One unique aspect of a forum is that 20 can respond to one post, and that avalanche can become a problem. I am in awe of her response to just that. At one point, I thought of suggesting just a few be identified as appropriate to continue the conversation. You and Twayneb came recently to mind due to your views and most particularly Spirit. I trust you two would not be puffed up by my suggesting you, because surly you are both aware of your shortcomings. [Humor: We could send you pms if you need help there. :D]
OK This is too hard for me. Time and the multiple issues. I really would like the bigger issue to be discussed. And I heard a Sister ask for help with a difficulty I would like to better understand and assist in, in some way.
P.S. When I brought up Corinthian CARNAL CHRISTIANS, I too thought that every (nearly every) fellowship is in that state, not to mention this membership. I laughed with agreement at this side-thought and soberly considered my behavior in the body.
P.P.S. Long posts: I dislike them. How can anyone stand to read all this. Yet I confess I have carefully read every post here. Some two or three times.
| 2010/5/20 16:52||Profile|
| Re: the testimony of God|
Joan had mentioned 'The perils of the argument of men.'.
This and the mention about being pure made me think about how increasingly I have become skeptical about people's testimony about themselves. I don't mean that in the sense of someone relating an experience or facts as they recall them. I mean this in the sense of testimony as to "what we are". Or in relation to Joan's 'perils of the argument of men', what those facts should mean.
I've become convinced that it is not our conception or comprehension of ourselves that matters or that is even most times worthy to even mention. But it is God's. It is God that both can accurately tell what we are(for every creature is naked before Him), and perhaps equally important, it is God that can tell others, if need be.
It is God that can testify to men about others, if He so chooses. This was the central point of conflict between Christ and the religous Jews that opposed Him. John bore witness of Christ, and if his baptisim(authority to) was from Heaven, why did they not believe him?
Read through the record of John's Gospel with this in mind and you will see that this issue is one of the central points of conflict.
It was God that said of Christ, that He was His beloved Son, in Whom He was well pleased.
And that, in relation to the issue of our being pure, brought to mind a passage from the book of Job. I looked it up this morning, and though I did not find exactly what I had recollected in my mind, what I did find seemed even more appropriate. It comes from a speech of Eliphaz, where he says,
"Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight."
Saints there means the angels.
Now, I realise that we might not take everything that the friends of Job say as being right or sound, but I think this statement is worthy of taking as such.
Welsey says in part in his comments on this passage:
"The angels that dwell in heaven; heaven being put for its inhabitants. None of these are pure, simply and perfectly, and comparatively to God. The angels are pure from corruption, but not from imperfection."
And if the angels(which do behold the face of God) are not free from imperfection as it relates in comparison to God, how much more so we who are yet in these clay jars?
There has only ever been One that has had ALL of the perfections of God, Who could say, when you have seen Me, you have seen the Father.
I've come to a conception of this in how it relates to us by an illustration from the garden and creation.
We were made in the image of God, and being such, we are 'an' image of Him. But we are not 'the' image - 'the' image of God is Christ.
And how this relates to us, and our relative imperfections, and I think also then to this discussion, I concieve of with an illustration of a bridge.
Just as 'an' image of a bridge cannot hold the actual weight of the cars that can pass across it, so to we, being only 'an' image of God, and not His substance, not His reality, we also cannot hold the full weight of Divine Glory. This was so in the garden, when being put to bear that weight through the test of the fruit and the serpent, we failed, and it is so also now, whenever we do anything being under some test or pressure, and we sin - for that is the essence of sin, to fall short of the glory of God.
And coming back to this passage from the speech of Eliphaz I think it especially relates here and to this issue of our relative imperfection. And of the testimony of God as to what we are.
It is fire that reveals the true nature of something. Job had the testimony of God, that he was one that shunned evil, but was Job perfect? Was he a full and adaquate expresion of the very image of God?
Not so, and the fire of his trials would reveal it to be so, yet he said he knew that God knew the way he took, and that when he had come through, he would come through as gold. Yet even gold has levels of purity and imperfection.
And when Job, who was not 'the image' of God, saw God Himself, he said,
"I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee. Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes."
Fire and trials will reveal what we are.
So Paul does not say, that we have been changed into the image of Christ, but that we shall be, and that we, beholding the glory of the LORD, are being changed, what?
From glory to glory.
One of the things that I have appreicated so much about the messages from Pastor Wurmbrand was that, in my mind, here was a man who I could listen to, whose faith and message and testimonies - had been tried.
I'm not very much interested in listening to the message of a man who has not been very much tried.
One thing that has stood out to me also in listening to that Pastor, was that I never recall him speaking very much if ever about his own qualities of charachteristics of godliness(though I have read from others how much he exuded the love of God) except to say of himself that he was a weak and insignificant sinner, or to magnify and praise the lovelyness of other Christians who he had known, either from history or in the underground Church.
And if I could relate this all here, tongues and otehr gifts are surely needfull as much as they are described by Paul as being for this purpose: to build up the believer. And to build up others.
Surely, yeah, surely, we all have need of gifts, to help us in being built up, while we are being built up into the very image of God.
The Image of Christ, The LORD.
Christopher Joel Dandrow
| 2010/5/20 18:55||Profile|
This world is not my home anymore.
| Re: woman or pagan not converted? |
Ok, I hadn't read Joan's post before I posted this; I took it off because I didn't want it to be more dividing.
God bless us all!!!
| 2010/5/20 19:00||Profile|
| Re: |
JoanM: I agree with your analysis of Brenda's importunity and genuine interest in everyone's veiwpoint on this thread. I would not have time to read and respond thoughtfully to every comment. I think threads such as this are very beneficial to many, but only insofar as we can maintain the love of Christ and crucify our flesh as far as our opinion is concerned. Even my right to be right must be in submission to Him.As long as we still have substantive things to say, I would also like to let it roll. The point is truly to build one another up and to bring ourselves into maturity where the Word of God and the things of God are concerned. But it will always be archived along with other good discussion on the topic. And if not, We still have the Word of God. I hear there are some pretty good things in there as well:-). God bless you sister.
Brenda: One thing I discern from your posts, you are hungry for God, for the real God, not just a man's idea about God. You desire the truth about the issue of speaking in tongues specifically. I know you have been bombarded by all sorts of arguments, which is, I guess, par for the course in an open forum. It is a lot like sitting in Starbucks and having a conversaion...with every customer all at once. I do pray that you will consider the things shared. God bless you as well sister.
| 2010/5/20 19:01||Profile|
| Re: |
Hello all, there are some good here in this thread worthy of pondering. But my "experience" says this is in the "zone" of becoming personal. I have been wrong before, but just wanted to say and encourage those entering any posts to consider and prayerfully decide whether their post is up building for the body or just right down personal "I will win this debate"
I don't know about the rest of you, but I am enjoying this thread. The dialogue is great. Oh sure, there is the odd person who gets testy, but hey, it's a forum.
Brenda had mentioned about her experience as it were with the "breathing on of the holy Ghost" as it were when Jesus met with the disciples before His ascension.
I know that most non Pentecostal if not all, believe that this is how they are baptized in the holy Ghost through this "breathing upon" when they receive Jesus Christ or at some point in their experience. If that experience was all that was needed to be filled with the Holy Ghost, why tarry in Jerusalem to be endued with power from on high? Peter refers to this power as the promise, the Holy Ghost which should be received by all those that obey Him.
Consider the Jewish man who was from Arabia and hearing the disciple who was speaking in tongues his language, and then another speaking Latin say. Wouldn't the Arabian Jew think that the one speaking Latin be speaking gibberish, not understanding what he is saying? Because you don't understand the one who is speaking in tongues, does that mean that the gift is not genuine because you don't understand what is being said? How do you know it's not a known language of the day? Are you a linguistic?
I am not just addressing you Brenda, so please don't feel singled out, but this discussion is for everyone.
I enjoyed reading your post a few pages back, and a bit of your testimony as well, thank you for sharing.
| 2010/5/20 22:00|
| Re: |
"Brenda: One thing I discern from your posts, you are hungry for God, for the real God, not just a man's idea about God. You desire the truth about the issue of speaking in tongues specifically."
I agree with that. As we are open and honest with each other, then we can grow. Brenda is a child of the living God and is here for a purpose. He Loves her with an everlasting love, she is my sister in Christ. Even if we were never in agreement on tongues, she will still be my sister in Christ. Just for the record, I believe that there are Spirit filled believers who do not speak in tongues. A man I quote often on this site, Tozer, who I believe spoke prophetically and had been changed by radical encounters with the Lord, ruined for this life and totaly sold out to Jesus Christ, never spoke in tongues. Of course that is not why I believe that all Spirit filled men and woman do not speak in tongues. Consider the rhetorical questions of verses 29 and 30.....brother Frank
If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?
But as it is, God placed the parts, each one of them, in the body as he intended.
If they were all one part, where would the body be?
But as it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
The eye cannot say to the hand, "I do not need you," nor again the head to the feet, "I do not need you."
Indeed, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are all the more necessary,
and those parts of the body that we consider less honorable we surround with greater honor, and our less presentable parts are treated with greater propriety,
whereas our more presentable parts do not need this. But God has so constructed the body as to give greater honor to a part that is without it,
so that there may be no division in the body, but that the parts may have the same concern for one another.
If (one) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it; if one part is honored, all the parts share its joy.
5 Now you are Christ's body, and individually parts of it.
Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; 6 second, prophets; third, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work mighty deeds?
Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts. But I shall show you a still more excellent way.
| 2010/5/20 22:05|