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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Does anyone know of a solid biblical response to MacArthur's sermons on tongues and spiritual gifts?

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RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Phantheus's: After this post, you must be left to your own devices. At this point, the best response towrds you is silence.



This is exactly why these forums do not have the richness we once experienced. Many that could speak into these forums with wisdom and insight have abandoned them. But it is hard to even take these conversations seriously when the type of highhanded nonsense I have read in this thread. This is the type of thing that creates schism and division in the Body of Christ.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2010/5/20 8:46Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

This is Paul's testimony under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:

I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. (I Corinthians 14:5 KJV)

For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: (1Corinthians 14:17-18 KJV)

Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order. (1Corinthians 14:39-40 KJV)

What is your testimony?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2010/5/20 8:59Profile









 Re:

by RobertW on 2010/5/20 4:59:43
This is Paul's testimony...

What is your testimony?
------------------------------------------------------------

The same!

g

 2010/5/20 9:13
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re: RobertW

Quote:
This is exactly why these forums do not have the richness we once experienced. Many that could speak into these forums with wisdom and insight have abandoned them. But it is hard to even take these conversations seriously when the type of highhanded nonsense I have read in this thread. This is the type of thing that creates schism and division in the Body of Christ.



This is not just symptomatic here Robert.

I see all over the place, anywhere online where "Christians" are interacting in an online world. The quickness and willingness that "believers" will decide to write another person off is absolutely staggering. I used to play MMO's before God convicted me of it, and the supreme level of immaturity and bridge burning people have in the online video gaming world is almost no different. There is something much bigger going on here.

The love of many is growing cold because of abounding iniquity.

Where are the believers who are bearing other people's burdens? When another brother or sister is wrong about something, to what degree will you pray for that person? If you don't and just write them off, maybe consider the possibility that fervent hot love, is growing pasty and lukewarm.

This is not a plea whatsoever to be loose with the truth. Be hardcore, be as resolute to defend the faith. But "Defending the Faith," must also have contained within its tool bag all that the faith contains, and we know that faith works through love.

Phan, bro, you can go silent, but you don't have to state that you are going to. The stating of it draws a line in the sand, that may not really need to be there brother.

We need to learn rather, in these last days, to strengthen what remains. When we find other believers, our interaction and response toward them should always be to stir up the giftings in them. We should never presume that just because someone has a hard time understanding something that they are deserving of dust shaking. Rather, we ought to be long-suffering just like our Lord is. I cannot imagine where I would be as a Christian if Jesus Christ had just written me off in my times of weakness and error. I would probably be in Hell. Patience, brotherly kindness, excellence, virtue, charity...these things make your faith and knowledge in Christ fruitful.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/5/20 9:28Profile
Heydave
Member



Joined: 2008/4/12
Posts: 1306
Hampshire, UK

 Re: Out of order!

I have followed this thread from the start, but not added since the early part because I could see the way it was likely to go and I am not that surprised at all how it has progressed.

What I will say may seem stern or unwelcome to some, but I only mean to speak what I believe is true and not to have any other motive, so here goes.....

The reason this discussion is not going anywhere and has ended up becoming personal is because it has stepped out of God's clear order for men and women. This debate is being focused around a woman (Brenda) who thinks it is her place to teach doctrinal truth and expound the sciptures to men, even correcting their understanding of the biblical text! The word of God says women are NOT permitted to teach or have authority over a man. 1 Timothy 2:12.

Now don't get me wrong, I DO think the women should and can be part of a healthy discussion, sharing their views, questioning and even disagreeing, but there is a line NOT to be crosssed, which I think is taking an authoritive teaching position on doctrinal issues. This is the line that has been clearly crosssed here!

This is my position and I believe it needs to be said. I don't want to debate this, but leave it with you to consider.


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Dave

 2010/5/20 9:53Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Again, for those that are interested there are some wonderful archived threads on this subject here on sermonindex. I would encourage a google search to look through some of them. They are very good conversations that balance the positions without the ad hominem abuse of demonizing. I found a few here:

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?forum=40&topic_id=3110&post_id=20471&viewmode=thread&order=1#20471

https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=118&forum=36&post_id=


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Robert Wurtz II

 2010/5/20 10:09Profile
rbanks
Member



Joined: 2008/6/19
Posts: 1257


 Re:

Alreadymind, I agree with your spirit of consolation in your post but brother don’t you also see that Brenda has only now condescended just a little to open up a little about her experience but only with a subtle twist in her writings toward others.

Do you not see even in her somewhat apologies she is still twisting things to her way?

Can’t you also see what Robert brought out about the part in her post directed toward me and Robert? How can anyone not see it and I can have patience with her and pray for her but I just don’t have the time to keep writing on here to someone who refuses to deal with the subject at hand in a most biblical way.

Robert brought three scriptures out in an earlier post concerning tongues and there are at least 3 other known places in the book of Acts where people spoke in tongues. Now let us stay with the bible and God forbid that we would call what the Holy Spirit of God has done and still does demonic.

This is not a question about whether demons can speak in different languages, which we know they can, this is about saying that the tongues that the Holy Spirit gives is of the devil and that is on the borderline of blasphemy.

Brenda, if you care to answer, what does the bible say about tongues? You are a smart intelligent lady. You can use a concordance, so show us every place in the bible where tongues are used. Where in the scriptures can you find any place that the Holy Spirit comes on anyone and they speak in tongues that they are to question it or even dare to call it demonic? The bible says not to get in danger of blaspheming the Holy Ghost because there is no forgiveness in this life or the next to those who end up doing it.

I will have to check your reply later because I have things to do and time needs to be redeemed to get it all done. If you don’t care to honestly look at the scriptures and reply from there I have no interest to dialog with you concerning unbiblical teaching. You will leave me with no other choice at the time but to only reject replying to you any more as I could only assume you are bent on being heretical.

Blessings to all!

 2010/5/20 10:41Profile
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Quote:
The reason this discussion is not going anywhere and has ended up becoming personal is because it has stepped out of God's clear order for men and women. This debate is being focused around a woman (Brenda) who thinks it is her place to teach doctrinal truth and expound the sciptures to men, even correcting their understanding of the biblical text! The word of God says women are NOT permitted to teach or have authority over a man. 1 Timothy 2:12. Now don't get me wrong, I DO think the women should and can be part of a healthy discussion, sharing their views, questioning and even disagreeing, but there is a line NOT to be crosssed, which I think is taking an authoritive teaching position on doctrinal issues. This is the line that has been clearly crosssed here! This is my position and I believe it needs to be said. I don't want to debate this, but leave it with you to consider.


____________________

This is something that should be considered.



God Bless
mj

 2010/5/20 10:56Profile
Areadymind
Member



Joined: 2009/5/15
Posts: 1042
Pacific Ocean

 Re: rbanks

Yes, I believe she is absolutely 100% wrong. Calling tongues demonic is absolutely dangerous ground. Yes I believe and agree as stated that it is wrong for a woman to teach a man. Yes I completely think she has twisted the scriptures and has not reckoned what has been taught but rather relies on her experience and own understanding, as I also think that anyone, John Macarthur included, whom believes a cessationist view is on very dangerous ground.
And yes I agree that there is twisting going on rbanks.

Yet on the other hand, I can't help thinking that there is something else going on. We Americans are reaping the full whirlwind of protestantism and its totally rebellious Spirit. As Americans, we have more divisions between us than ANY other "church" culture anywhere in the world. Whom is willing to bridge those gaps? Whom is willing to be the dutchboy for everyone else? I find it rather compelling that about a month or two ago I posted James chapter four and said that this is what revival is all about, and not a single person responded.

James says that our warring with one another is because of our lusts, and because of that he calls us adulterers. The true issue then when technical conflict arises indicates to me that division has more to do with a greater spiritual problem than the technicalities of secondarily important doctrines. And no I am not being ecumenical. I hate that spirit. I am just attempting to consider others better than myself if at all possible.

That is why I keep trying to emphasize that the specificity of debate over tongues is NOT the real issue here. Brenda is not denying the gospel of Jesus Christ in any way.

We can continue as Americans to go down that twisty path that Martin Luther started, which was very necessary in some ways, but was a double edged sword in other ways. Or...we can heed James advice. Howl...Mourn...let our heads be as waters because of the adulterous divisions between us. It is no wonder judgment begins in the house of the Lord. It is no wonder we as Americans have the most rebellious children in the universe.

The irony here is we are talking so much about Corinthians, and even the issue of their carnality has been brought into this discussion. And what everyone fails to recognize is that the term "Carnality" as Paul uses it in context has to do with their divisions over who is a better preacher. The reason why Paul Washer says there is no such thing as a carnal Christian is because the term "Carnal" has come to mean something in our vernacular that it did not mean in the context in which Paul used it. To be carnally minded, is to not be spiritually minded, and that is where I see so many divisions on forums. Ye are yet carnally minded, and not yet spiritually minded. Which I see as a process of sanctification. Spiritual mindedness does not occur overnight for anyone. It is a practice of being faithful to listen and yield to the Spirit's call to be faithful in little things, time and time again. Which then grows us into reproductive maturity where our ability to exhort and admonish others has Godly authority rather than carnal technical authority.

The question I have for so many people out there on the internet today who, by their words, indicate that they are self proclaimed protectors and apologists for truth. Has the body of Christ laid hands on you and recognized that this is the calling of Christ on your life? Or is it self-motivated?

Now I know that I am new around here, and am fully aware that I must endeavor to earn all of the more experienced peoples respect and trust because how could any of us possibly even really know one another? But one thing I do notice, is the irony of the same spirit of Corinthian division is very common here. At least since I started joining in on the threads. The funny thing is, in this thread, with a Corinthian spirit we are debating a doctrine the Corinthians struggled with...the irony is almost to rich for me to digest. I think I might need a gall bladder replacement.


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Jeremiah Dusenberry

 2010/5/20 11:36Profile
EverestoSama
Member



Joined: 2010/5/17
Posts: 1175


 Re: Areadymind

Quote:
Now I know that I am new around here, and am fully aware that I must endeavor to earn all of the more experienced peoples respect and trust because how could any of us possibly even really know one another? But one thing I do notice, is the irony of the same spirit of Corinthian division is very common here. At least since I started joining in on the threads. The funny thing is, in this thread, with a Corinthian spirit we are debating a doctrine the Corinthians struggled with...the irony is almost to rich for me to digest. I think I might need a gall bladder replacement.



Very interesting thought Areadymind. That being said, along those lines then should this verse be even more relevant, as it is also from Corinthians?

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you. (NASB, though the KJV renders it equally as well)

Just a thought.

 2010/5/20 11:56Profile





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