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I don`t know what cut and paste session means, I quoted twice and did not see anything wrong with that. I am not attacking the people of God, I am merely disagreeing with a doctrine held by *some in the church*. I thought that was what a discussion forum was for? All you seem to be doing is trying to disract that disussion with various guises.
| 2010/5/19 10:29|
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Guise? That's three accusations in one day.
Robert Wurtz II
| 2010/5/19 10:41||Profile|
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God bless you Robert - I will be praying for you.
| 2010/5/19 10:44|
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Hi Brenda, for your consideration........
I believe that the Holy Spirit was sent to comfort us, empower us and lead and guide us into all truth. This baptism of the Holy Spirit is very different than a baptism of water. It has nothing to do with signs and wonders, there were signs and wonders by the apostles long before Pentecost, they were sent out by two's and many miracles were wrought by the authority of Jesus. No, this baptism of the Holy Spirit, this encounter with God is something infinitely higher and grander than any signs and wonders. I would go as far to say that any physical miracle pales in comparison to "encounter,' meaning, walking in His presence. After Pentecost we see true power. The power to rejoice in the deepest dungeons. The power to love our enemies even as they kill us with stones. The power to speak to the hardest hearts of men, to penetrate these very hearts. This is a reversal of fear.
Up till that point, men lived in all kinds of fear and defeat. Look at the children of Israel after being captured and been taken to Babylon. Their enemies taunted them and said "Lets here your songs of victory now, sorry, cannot hear you (my obvious paraphrase:) They hung their harps on the willow tree, they had lost their song in the night. The children of Israel when their backs were to the sea and the Egyptians were about to fall on them, cried out in fear and regretted having followed Moses because they were now going to die. These were people of little faith who loved their lives more than they loved and wanted to follow God. The Apostles in the boat as it looked like they were going to drown, even although Jesus was right there. They cried out in fear and Jesus was not happy and rebuked them for having little faith. Peter, when faced with dying for a humiliated and captured Jesus, runs, and then denies his Lord, even with curses. Now, after Pentecost that all changes, everything changes. We now have the power to " love not our lives unto death." This is not natural, this is supernatural. This releases us to be used by the Lord. This causes us to enter into His rest and cease from our own works. We can enter into His rest because He is our forerunner, He has went ahead and is our anchor in the harbor as the storm rages all around. We have ceased from our works because it is now He who works in us and through us for His own good pleasure. We are yielded and must continue to yield. We are surrendered and must continue to surrender. Just as one must abide, and continue to abide, just as one must find Jesus and continue to seek Him and come to Him. None of these are one time things, they are continual. And so at points we can resist yielding, we can resist abiding , we can resist seeking Him and coming to Him, for any number of fleshly reasons.
David is a good example of this. As he sees Bathsheba, as he pursues Bathsheba, as he finally commits adultery, as he murders her husband, all along he is not without conscience, he is not without that still small voice , yet he resists and chooses to follow the flesh, he quenches the small still voice in order to follow the desire of his heart. When we have something revealed to us from God, whether it is primarily from His Word or spoken straight to our heart, and we resist that, we are failing to yield. The Lord has revealed in His word that we must be endued with power from on high. If we resist that, if we do not seek that, then we are not yielding to Him. All through Scriptures there is a series of "you do this and I will do that." This is most clearly demonstrated in " seek and you shall find." In fact we are told that the Lord is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Therefore, we must pursue Him. And we pursue Him by dying to ourselves and to the things of the world. This demonstrates to God the seriousness of our pursuit. He rewards this. So this may lead to the question, if we are not pursuing God, are we resisting Him? Are we quenching the Holy Spirit in our lives, is it possible to quench the Holy Spirit, resist the Holy Spirit? Well, first of all, the Lord is sovereign and He will do whatever He wants to do and He cannot be resisted.
Yet, what is it that He wants from us? Is it not our hearts that He is after. He is not a passive God. He has desired that men pursue Him. He wants our yielded hearts. He wants all of us, not a portion of us. That is why He continually says " Come to me.' "Seek Me." He requires movement on our part. Not because that gives us any power, for it does not. Us moving towards Him or resisting Him in no way takes away anything from an almighty God, in fact its quite the opposite. He desires us to desire Him because it is a love relationship. It is we who must humble ourselves and die in order to come to Him. We must decrease, He must be lifted up. This is the seeking that God requires of us. We must come before Him broken and contrite. If we refuse to humble ourselves, if we are not broken and contrite, then we cannot cry out like David "Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me." (Psa 51:11) David is acknowledging that he has been " cast away from the conscious awareness of God, that the Holy Spirit been quenched. He then cries out "Restore to me the joy of Your salvation and uphold me with a willing Spirit." (Psa 51:12) God requires all of us, he requires the deepest part of us, we must seek HIm and allow Him to fill the deepest parts of us, He must have the very heart of us, holding nothing back "Behold you require truth in the inward parts : and in the hidden part you shall make me to know wisdom." (Psa 51:6)
Stephen, speaking by the very power that we are talking about says this "Oh stiff necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you. (Acts 7:51) The Holy Spirit and Pentecost came about primarily as an act of obedience to the Word of God. Jesus told them not to leave Jerusalem until they had been endued with power from on high. So, in obedience, they gathered in the upper room and waited. If it has been revealed to us by the Word of God that we must be endued with power from on high, we must seek that as an act of obedience. We must wait also, for the work of God cannot be done in the power of men, it can only be achieved by the Spirit of the living God...............brother Frank
| 2010/5/19 11:04|
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Hi brother Frank
I agree with everything you say about the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is to occur once we have consented to die to sin, self and the world - the old man crucified with Christ, then comes the baptism of power. I know this as I have experienced it myself and the change it brings, a change that we see in the disciples after they were baptised. John Wesley was very helpful in cases where the blessing was lost and he said that many did lost it then regain it. The problem is that many are experiencing a `baptism` before they have died as someone else has correctly said, and it is not in the Holy Spirit but another spirit. The teaching must be specifically that death must occur before the baptism and that everything is to be tested to see which spirit it is from.
| 2010/5/19 11:41|
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Brenda, Brenda, Brenda
Robert and others have been honestly trying to help you because they truly love God and fear to ever misrepresent the pure Word of God.
I do not appreciate the way you have spoken to brother Robert and the way you have disrespected him. I only pray that you will be delivered of the spirit that is motivating you to act in the way you are doing.
I have learned to really appreciate people like Robert who handled the Word of God with so much respect and have been given the ability to communicate to others in the way he has demonstrated in his posts to you. You have failed to appreciate the wisdom of God in all his posts. You have also failed to hear others and I have come to believe it is your intention not to hear but only to promote your own agenda.
I pray that you will let God open the eyes of your heart and that His true fear would cause you to repent so that you dont blaspheme the Holy Ghost in labeling His work (because the scriptures clearly state that it is the Holy Spirit who gives the utterance to speak in tongues) as being of the devil.
May God have mercy on your soul!
| 2010/5/19 12:36||Profile|
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Brenda, you write...
"I agree with everything you say about the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is to occur once we have consented to die to sin, self and the world "
Now sister, if you truly read what I wrote you will know I never said that. What I truly meant was, and I will spell it out a little clearer :) One can resist the Holy Spirit, which is where I believe you are at right now, even by ignoring some excellent council on this thread. Obedience was the key. They were told to wait and not go anywhere until they were endued with power from on high, they were obedient to that. You too have been told by Scripture to be Baptized in the Holy Spirit, to be endued with power from on high, I believe that you resist this. Now I could be wrong and only you know your own heart, but it does seem, like rbanks said, that you have already made your mind up and are not willing to move. Of course you can do that , it is your right, and if that is the case and your simply putting forward what you believe, then we will have to agree to disagree..........brother Frank
| 2010/5/19 12:46|
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Sister Brenda, There is just no scripture that anyone can muster up to do away with the speaking in other tongues.
With all this fear of being deceived, have you considered that you might be deceived concerning this issue?
Have you even considered Frank's testimony a few pages back when he said that he never learned what men taught on the subject. He received the holy Ghost in his bedroom, alone with God. And one who hadn't learned about the speaking in tongues only what he read in the bible, do you think that God who has a heart that seeks after him in spirit and in truth would give Frank a false spirit?
Do you think that God is that cruel and unjust, that if we "being evil know how to give good gifts unto our children HOW MUCH MORE shall our heavenly Father give the holy Spirit to them that ask for it"?
I know you don't doubt the infilling of the Holy Spirit. I know that. Your dispute is the speaking in tongues that you say is gibberish.
Now, lets take Frank again. He never learned the speaking in tongues. He was fresh out of the womb of God so to speak. When he asked God for this gift and God gave it and out of his belly rolled out a language that was not familiar to him and spoke in tongues.
But you have the audacity to say that that which God gave to him is a delphi spirit.
Now consider your words carefully. Lets use Frank again. He is just newly come into knowing Jesus. He asks for the holy Spirit and God gives it to him, and then the holy Spirit manifests Himself through his vocal cords and because he is speaking in tongues, that means that he has received a false spirit?
| 2010/5/19 16:39|
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The problem is that many are experiencing a `baptism` before they have died as someone else has correctly said, and it is not in the Holy Spirit but another spirit. The teaching must be specifically that death must occur before the baptism and that everything is to be tested to see which spirit it is from.
Brenda, et.al.: As I shared in my testimony, this was the very thing that stood as the greatest hindrance to my receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the belief that I should somehow have to reach an arbitrary level of holiness before I qualified to receive the free gift of the Holy Spirit. You called it death to sin, self, and the world. The first already happened when you were born again. In the spirit we are dead to sin and alive unto God, and we are to reckon ourselves dead indeed to sin, and alive unto God. I think what you are describing might better be termed being dead to self or to the flesh. It was the empowerment of the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit that has given me an ability to die to self that I never had prior to receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. If one is waiting until he is "dead to the flesh" in totality, one will never receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. You need the Holy Spirit to give you power to crucify the flesh. Romans 15:16.
As to receiving a false spirit, it is almost as if some have the notion that there are two spirits floating around out there somewhere waiting for an opening to invade, and that without the correct filter in place, the wrong one will get through. This is very odd, and I believe very erroneous picture indeed. Jesus Christ Himself is the baptizer in the Holy Spirit. If I am His, if I have been born again, He will fill me, baptize me, in the Holy Spirit if I will simply ask and receive. If I am His and if He baptizes me in the Holy Spirit, how will He give me something false? Receiving the Holy Spirit is not like opening oneself up to some spiritual influence, it is being baptized in, saturated with, indwelt by the same Holy Spirit of God that raised Christ from the dead. Only born again men and women can be filled with the Holy Spirit. It is Jesus who does the filling. The only instances I see of demonic spirits entering people in the new testament were people who were not born again and rebelling against God.
As to fleshly manifestation there are many things that can be said. Some people put on a show but do not truly possess anything real. This is sad, but does not invalidate the real any more than counterfeit money invalidates real currency. There are people who do supernatural things under the influence of demonic spirits. But a man filled with the Holy Spirit has no fear or confusion with this. His spirit, in communion and fellowship with the Holy Spirit, will discern that the spirit in question is not of God. Greater is He that is in us than He that is in the world. No worries here! Some people get caught up in emotion. Lets face it, we are fallen people and that applies to our emotions as well. I think this is why we need good teaching and discipleship in the body. None of this, however, discredits the true.
Another issue at play here is our human tendency to loyalty without reason. An example would be peoples tendency to brand loyalty when shopping. They may have no proof that brand X is any better than brand Y, but will always purchase brand X at the store and say, "It is the best." When faced with empirical evidence that brand Y is actually better, they often become visibly upset and go through a crisis of sorts in dealing with this truth.
Really, it is much the same with our acceptance of and loyalty to the doctrines of man. What Brenda has gone through in coming from Calvanism is an example. I am sure there were some crises that arose in her heart and mind in this process. There were things that she had to abandon that were difficult to release and were finally lain down only after much prayer and wrestling with her own heart and mind on the matter. Ultimately, when the issue was settled, the crisis was over. I think all of us have been there. Like it or not, we are a product of our teachers and of our experiences. One who had seen abuses among pentecostals and who has been taught by people they respect and admire the cessationalist viewpoint will, because of teaching and experience, feel very strongly about that point of view and will seek to defend it. Their interpretation of scripture will be colored by their belief, rather than the other way around.
One real example of this is the term baptism itself found in the KJV. The greek word is baptizo and means to repeatedly dip or to submerge. But at the time, the prevalent teaching in the church was to sprinkle, not to immerse. So instead of saying, for example, that John immersed Jesus the translators coined a new English word from the greek that had no definite meaning. This allowed them to continue sprinkling without scriptural opposition. Now I don't have any problem with baptizing with a bucket poured over the head if that is all that is available, but the point is that a predetermined belief colored the translation. We are capable of no less.
We must make a decision to take the Word as it comes to us and allow our own opinions to be totally conformable to the Word of God. This is hard, hard, hard to do. When our beliefs are challenged, the natural human tendency is to rise up and defend our turf so to speak. It is part of the fallen flesh that must also be put do death by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Just some thoughts on the topic, and related to how we deal with the topic.
Brenda, regardless of whether you ever see eye to eye with me, Frank, or anyone else, you remain our sister in Christ. I can tell you that this issue of tongues is forever settled in my heart, first because it is the clearest and most straight forward reading of the Word of God and second because I have experienced what was experienced on the day of pentecost by the 120 and by countless men and women of God since that time. I have experienced the great benefit that speaking in tongues has in the life of a believer. It is truly not what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is all about, but I am thankful that it is a valid part of the experience.
I have not addressed this portion of the discussion, but historical narrative by people who were there says that tongues of fire leaped from the top of the building in the early day at Azusa Street, as well as a heavy cloud like a fog occasionally appeared in the building during meetings. I would say that tongues are specifically mentioned later as a gift of the Spirit while tongues of fire are not. So in that light, one probably would not expect tongues of fire as one would expect speaking in tongues. So, I don't think one can argue that if one continued the other ought also.
| 2010/5/19 17:24||Profile|
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"...this type of attacking of the things of God."
Praise God that He has given strong gifts to we that are otherwise weak and that He knows exactly what we need( 1Co 12:24).
When I first spake in tounges I knew nothing about the Bible except that I had recently read the New Testament and understood enough to know that I needed Jesus and wanted to follow Him and that the Book had become open to me.
In the weeks that followed He showed me many mighty things and though I was weak, untempered and undisciplined, He used me much also.
Praise God that He uses foolish things to confound the wise.
O may I be foolish again, but mighty with God.
Christopher Joel Dandrow
| 2010/5/19 18:14||Profile|