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I've been reading this thread quite religiously, if I can use that word here. The last few posts have been eye openers or at best, a refresher course on what's important.
You know, since the beginning in Genesis and through the Old Testament right up to the time of Jesus, the one thing that God wanted was our hearts and that our hearts would love Him. That is what those old Patriarchs had, they loved God. The prophets loved God. For this was the whole reason why the law of sin had to be taken out of the way so that God can manifest His love toward us through us by His Spirit and that those around us would also be affected. It is God's will that we love one another. The same love with which God loves us
| 2010/5/18 19:29|
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I once heard a man say that just as the medium of exchange in the world's system is money, the medium of exchange in the kingdom of God is obedience. It is not that we earn anything from God, as the things of the kingdom cannot be earned. But there is a surrender, a submission to the Lord that opens us up to be channels through which the Holy Spirit can move. Through surrender and obedience we empower God to be able to work in our lives by removing the hindrance of self.
Sorry Travis, I forgot to say an uber amen to this statement. This is a great summary of the End of the first epistle to Timothy. When Paul basically says that the Love of money is the root of all evil and the way we combat it is through the currency of heaven by fleeing such wicked lusts and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith love patience, meekness. This is how we fight the good fight and as you mentioned above through obedience we "Lay hold of eternal life."
This is just so worthy of such a shout and an amen that I am realizing that the Lord is doing a work through many people here because flesh and blood does not reveal these things. God is working in our hearts brothers and sisters. O that the oil of the unity of the Spirit would flow between us like it ran down the beard of Aaron. Decreasing our friction for the promotion of what is meaningful to our Lord and to Him alone...
| 2010/5/18 21:37||Profile|
| Re: |
Quoting Travis: I think that is why we see Paul teaching that the love of God in 1 Cor. 13 is to be the motivating factor behind the operation of the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor. 12 and 14.
Paul was speaking in context of the gifts of the Spirit and was dealing with the motivation behind the gifts. God's kind of love and compassion (charity) is the catalyst, the motivation that drives the operation of the gifts of the Spirit.
My response: Amen. John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Quoting Travis again: The baptism of the Holy Spirit, while it is an individual experience, has at its core the idea that we are thus empowered to be joints supplying as God has given us to supply.
My response: Amen again. Eph 4:11-16 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
The events of Pentecost empowered the disciples to witness about what they had seen. What Ive struggled with recently as a Pentecostal (I use that term carefully) is whether or not I have sought the baptism of the Holy Spirit for the right purpose. Have I tried to box the Holy Spirit into a gift for ME? Or am I willing to let HIM work through me to fulfill the will of God in the church and in witnessing to the world around me. It really is a question of surrender, of yielding myself, isnt it?
Quoting Snufalapagus: The last part of your quote, "Do they magnify Jesus Christ?". That is the scary part of deception, most of them do. Jesus said, Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. They will glorify Jesus Christ through and through, but the end result is what kind of people are they drawing in? What kind of fruit is being harvested?
What I should have better defined here (and I apologize to everyone for the confusion) is what I meant by magnify. I mean that the person claiming to have a gift of the Spirit should manifest the mind and spirit of Christ. This means a humility and obedience to the will of God. This means more than claiming the name of Jesus Christ; it means the persons motives, actions, and attitudes follow the pattern of Christs. Obviously, a tele-evangelist speaking in tongues and promising unbiblical blessings to the next person to give to the tele-evangelists ministry is not truly magnifying Jesus Christ, even if he or she claims the name of Jesus and/or the gifts of the Spirit. Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Quoting Areadymind: O that the oil of the unity of the Spirit would flow between us like it ran down the beard of Aaron. Decreasing our friction for the promotion of what is meaningful to our Lord and to Him alone...
My response: Amen and amen!
| 2010/5/18 22:06||Profile|
| Re: Bread or stone|
Many believers are deceiving themselves if they think that they will not be deceived just because they trust God to give them the bread and not stone. However there are conditions for God`s protection as shown in James 4:7. To submit oneself to God is the condition of the protection from deception. If there is any sin in our lives, then we have put ourselves outside of this protection because any one who sins, has the devil as his father 1John, various places. Sin in our lives means that Satan has a foothold and he can provide the most believable deceptions coming and an angel of light so that even the elect can be deceived. I believe that one of his biggest deceptions is to get God`s people to utter words that they do not understand and by doing so emit curses upon themselves and probably more importantly, by giving him control over their so called prayer language, they are submitting themselves to him and not to God, who has given us language and intelligence so that we can understand it so that we can be as wise as serpents and not be fooled by THE serpent.
DO ALL SPEAK WITH TONGUES?
Please read 1Cor 12:6-11 which says that all did not speak with tongues.
| 2010/5/19 2:27|
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"Let me get this straight, in 1st Corintians, you think that Paul said do not speak in tongues because "tongue talking" is not of God? or what?"
Paul is allowing the genuine tongue speaking, that is real languages that are new to the speaker ie that they do not understand what they have said, and rebuking those who are babbling and not speaking a real language and so are sounding brass. I did not say that tongues were to be used for preaching, you are once again confusing me with cessationsists. It says clearly in Acts that they were praising God in these exisiting languages which the visiting Jews recognised as their own.
As I am not a Greek scholar I cannot explain the differences between the two words that Paul is talking about to the Corinthians, it is my own understanding of the text revealed to me by God I believe.
You have still not explained why tongue speakers today do not have the gift authenticated by tongues of fire over their heads.
"There is little discernment in all people."
This is the phrase you were saying I had said. Sorry but I am having trouble underststanding some of what you are saying.
"Regarding your conclusion though, consider Paul's words beginning I Cor. 13 in relation to Mark 16:17's meaning, rather than assuming that he was being either sarcastic or cynical."
I do not think he was being sarcastic, but he was using a figure of speech callled hyperbole so saying "if it were possible that I could speak the language of angels". During that period, it was a well known expression - to use the language of angels and it did not mean a specific language, and his hearers would know that. Angels moreover spoke in human languages whenever they were seen.
| 2010/5/19 2:47|
| Re: The source of glossolalia|
Why did Paul only speak to the Corinthians about tongues? I believe that the Corinthians, being in the same area, were being deceived by this spirit :
"Delphi was inhabited since Mycenaean times (14th - 11th c. B.C.) by small settlements who were dedicated to the Mother Earth deity. The worship of Apollo as the god of light, harmony, and order was established between the 11th and 9th centuries. Slowly over the next five centuries the sanctuary grew in size and importance. During the 8th c. B.C. Delphi became internationally known for the Oracular powers of Pythia--the priestess who sat on a tripod, inhaled ethylene gasses, and muttered incomprehensible words that foretold the future."
Delphi situated on the lower southern slopes of the Parnassus, some 2000 feet above the Gulf of Corinth...... The oracle (person) of Delphi there. god Apollo presiding ... long history (pre 548 BC) of the temple there being destroyed and rebuilt from Greek through Roman times
.closed AD 390 by Theodosius in the name of Christianity ...first excavation 1880 by French
. a source of Prophecy....oracle (a person, the Pythia) spoke, gave answers in a state of frenzy induced by means not now ascertainable with certainty ... ecstasies and sex of the Pythia ...due to the original chthonian nature of the cult. Faith in the power of the god to take possession was complete
A male prophet put their question and interpreted the Pythia's answer. [words riddles/nonsense]
Reference: The Oxford Classical Dictionary, Second Edition, Ed. Hammond and Scullard, 1970, page 322-323
"What is "chthonian nature"?
Similarities?: ecstatic utterances that needed interpretation. Not a new thing IN THAT AREA. Appeal?: everyone could be a Pythia/oracle."
from a pm just sent to me many thanks for that.
| 2010/5/19 4:59|
| 2010/5/19 6:36|
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Becca2010 spoke about THE PURPOSE of seeking the baptism of the Holy Spirit and YIELDING OR SURRENDERING.
Quoting Becca2010: "The events of Pentecost empowered the disciples to witness about what they had seen. What Ive struggled with recently as a Pentecostal (I use that term carefully) is whether or not I have sought the baptism of the Holy Spirit for the right purpose. Have I tried to box the Holy Spirit into a gift for ME? Or am I willing to let HIM work through me to fulfill the will of God in the church and in witnessing to the world around me. It really is a question of surrender, of yielding myself, isnt it?"
One perspective of the problem many self-identified charismatics evidence to others (charismatic, pentecostal, non-tongue speakers, oh my these words!) --- what it often looks like it (the problem) might be to me --- is that in their rush to be filled with spirit (Holy or unholy), to be anointed, to get POWER, spiritual power, so they can do the mighty works of God, is that they have missed the cross ---SPECIFICALLY they have missed the death of self.
Not that they are alone in this by any means. What God [triune] did on the cross and through His body for me is often treated like a"second base" to be touched quickly in rounding the bases, amidts cheering onlookers, and then remembered yearly in sympathy for Jesus.
But maybe that is how speaking in tongues became a must-do-it work with how to instructions, the solution to all problems. Maybe it was some other way, like presented as a fast tract to something. I don't know the history. Maybe Frank's classical Pentecostals know the death of self.
Becca2010, Yielding or surrendering are words that just don't seem to catch it. Death. That's what I reckon it is. Mine. In the end, not a bit of my sin nature makes it through that. Remember Ravenhill's lament: "Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a few men like Paul? He said, "I'm dead!" Dead to self... dead to ambition... dead to feelings... dead to being offended... dead to being flattered... dead! Paul died to everything!"(found on SI quotes thread) [Edit for clairity, addition: Submitting/yielding, are words that fit how we respond as believers in walking in the Spirit.]
It seems wise to me to enter into, settle the issue of, our death BEFORE seeking whatever is subsequently being sought in "the baptism of the Holy Spirit."
It is "conformed to His death" in Phil. 3:10, a fellowship with Him. Its the application.
| 2010/5/19 6:42||Profile|
| Re: |
Why did Paul only speak to the Corinthians about tongues? I believe that the Corinthians, being in the same area, were being deceived by this spirit
This is absolutely and utterly false. Is it wise to parrot lies? It is a reckless speculation that has absolutely no one-to-one with the scriptures. It suggests that Paul under inspiration of the Holy Spirit could not identify the real problem, but needed some modern exegete to afford Paul and the Holy Spirit their assistance. Was Paul deceived by the πύθων (pythonian) spirit? He identified and cast that spirit out of a woman in Acts 16:16. Paul never identified the problem as πύθων. The Corinthian letter is instructive.
εὐχαριστῶ τῷ θεῷ μου, πάντων ὑμῶν μᾶλλον γλώσσαις λαλῶν (I Cor. 14:18)
Are you suggesting that Paul is here moving in the πύθων πνεῦμα (pythonian spirit)? Paul was not just in the 'area' of Corinth, but traveled all over and wrote the epistle from Ephesus. I have yet to see one legitimate English Translation that would suggest the reading to be any different than, "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you." (NIV) Did he thank God for being moved by a πύθων πνεῦμα (pythonian spirit). I don't think it wise to attribute the phenomena in Corinth to the devil. This is the type of thing that answers another question on these forums, "What does blasphemy of the Holy Spirit look like." Well, read through these threads. The context of the issue?
But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is when a person recognizes that God is at work, but because of their own personal ambition borne biases, or down right hate, they attribute what they know to be God to the Devil. When done in ignorance there is hope, but when done willfully is very dangerous.
Demonic activity was rife all over the Roman Empire including in Jerusalem where the Pharisees were making children of hell as a matter of course. What spirit were they moving in? They then fled to Yavneh and start Rabbinic Judaism, a dead, legalistic. pretend-to-be-of-God devilry that has locked up the Jews in lies ever since.
The problem at Corinth was their self-centered attitude where they were not holding the head. I have already shown earlier that the letter was written to the Church at large. It is instructive on the right-use of glossa (tongues/languages). To begin drawing one-to-one parallels with phenomena found in the ancient world in the sense of your post is to put many Christian ideas into question. It is a slippery slope once a person uses for their authority these 'scholarly' discoveries. As if we are ignorant of them? They sift young-believers faith, but to they that have an ounce of experience they are not at the mercy of those that brought even a ton of such arguments. For me tongues is not just an academic issue- it is a reality.
Robert Wurtz II
| 2010/5/19 8:00||Profile|
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| 2010/5/19 8:30||Profile|