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 i am grieved beyond words at what we have become.

This has been brewing in my soul for many years, terrible grief, and i will explain.

(before i start, please allow me to expose my heart, and please do not think, that what i write i write out of my flesh, or my mind, or out of vain imaginations..please i beg you all to see that truth in what I say)

Yesterday, the moderators had to close a thread, "IHOP to be questioned". i dont bring that up to re-stir the pot, i just register that reality. We have another thread a-brewing, "Should women teach" (something like that) We have other threads, marking men as apostates via their ministries, it goes on and on.

i don't say that to insult, but to point to a sypmtom of something more egregious.

and it is this, partially this:

of all the posts on this forum, and all of the Scripture quoted, what percentage is quoted either "red Letter", from the Mouth of Jesus, from the Four Gospel accounts, and what percentage is quoted from the Epistles of Paul?

My spirit as led by the Spirit tells me, the percentage is overwhelmingly in "favor" of the Epistles.

Don't mistake me, i am not speaking in favor of what is called "Jesus Only"...or "Oneness". Not at all, i beg your indulgence as this has been welling in me for a few years and REALLY struck me this morning as i was in the Gospel of Mark.

This "seed" planted in my spirit does NOT have me denying Messiah Jesus, God forbid. Jesus is all i have, where else can i go to, but what it does do is beg this question, are we neglecting the Word of Jesus, "Red Letters"?

When man, who sees thru the glass darkly, wishes to buttress an ecclesiatical or doctrinal point, i notice that they run right to the Epistles of Paul, and then my soul wonders about those men who argued and fought over what was "canon".....millenia ago.

Because in the past, my heart and spirit felt led to ask Jesus,"please Lord Jesus, Messiah, Son of God, let me know more deeply WHO YOU ARE, and it seemed wise and of profit, to me, to read and re-read in circular form, the Four Gospels, along with Acts, over and over again, slowly.

Mind you saints, I did not neglect the Whole of the Bible, not the Tanakh, with the Law, the Writings and the Prophets, nor the Epistles of the New Covenant. For me, to eat of the Word, is sweet, its joy...but something has been bothering me.

I feel that a lot of faith=based arguments are "settled" using New Covenant Epistles.

Some might counter with the oft used 2 Timothy 3:16-17

to which i say yes and amen, the question it poses to me, what "Scriptures" is Paul refering to, as at this point, 2nd Timothy was Paul's last letter to his son in the Faith?

It had not been "locked" into canon, and this is no casting off of the words of Paul, God forbid.

My grief is that i feel we may have deified human vessels used of God such as Paul, over the Messiah Jesus, my grief is that when we preach the Gospel, the Good News, is that many expounders, preachers, witness's use the Mercy of Messiah, as a "get out hell free" card, my grief is that we MIGHT know the points of Romans, or 1 Cor 13, better than we do John 17, the Mountaintop of Jesus Our High Priest, Who gave His longest recorded prayer in that Chapter, ..."that they may be one".

and are we one?

How many ekklesial divisions, how many denominations, how many "churches" formed in the name of an imperial city, i speak of rome, how many arguments over this "doctrine" and that "doctrine"? 400 denominations?...and that is the Body of Christ? To think that the Body of Christ is cut up, sliced and diced is the plain outright spirit of ANTI-Christ. That very thought is rebellion, and woe to the other denominations who lift up the mother of Jesus as worthy of worship, or pray to idols of long-dead "saints", who's very bodies molder in the grave this very day.

Brethern, i have so much more to say, and my words are weak, yet they are strong in Him, that is Jesus Christ, His Word i cling to....."reveal Your Word in me Messiah"

Some may say, Jesus did testify He came to bring division on earth, but i see this as He testfied, the DIVISION is between the Children of Light and the children of darkness, not division among the Children of Light.

please, answer if you can or are led, are we one, as He is One?

I beg of you all, read John 17, pray over that, and search the answer.

humbled, broken grieved, and yet i rejoice IN Messiah Jesus, neil

 2010/4/27 8:32

Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2661
Nottingham, England

 Re: i am grieved beyond words at what we have become.

What can one say?

After reading this, I thought it looked like it has the potential to become one of 'those threads'.

But, God forbid.

God bless.

 2010/4/27 8:45Profile

Joined: 2009/12/4
Posts: 1860

 Re: i am grieved beyond words at what we have become.

"are we one?"

I believe that those that are apart of the Bride of Christ are one. The Bridegroom is searching for earnest hearts after Him and this Transcends divisions, doctrines, theory, theology, and denomination. Those that chose to bicker must examine themselves and test themselves did Jesus promote senseless quarrels? I believe it was the Pharisees that wanted to debate with Jesus while Jesus came to defeat another foe. I understand your grief and I look at the churches of today and ask Is this really what Jesus meant? If we started just with the scriptures would we get our modern Christianity? I sadly have to say no we wouldn't. I think you are right though and we have to ask yet another question Did Jesus really mean what He said? and Do we know what He is saying? Let us pray and interceed rather than accuse(such as the accuser of the brethen)

God Bless,

Matthew Guldner

 2010/4/27 8:56Profile

Joined: 2009/1/16
Posts: 303


I have been on SI form since is began. There have been so many "discussions". The principle to keep is love towards our brothers and sisters in Christ on this forum. While I may not agree, I want to have a love for my family. We will be spending a long time with each other in eternity.

God's word said that the world will know Him by our love for one another. Trying to win an argument and forgetting how to love one another is dangerous. So many sinners that watch the body of Christ will end up in hell because of our "discussion" and arguments over doctrine.

Doug R

 2010/4/27 9:06Profile

Joined: 2007/3/21
Posts: 87

 Re: i am grieved beyond words at what we have become.

Is there to be a distinction between any part of the bible and another. Are we to value the words in red as holding a higher value than those in black. We have to consider the Unity of the Word.

The same mouth that spoke the Words in read is the same mouth that spoke through those who wrote the words in black. To give a higher value to the words spoken by Jesus during His earthly tenure than those spoken by Him in His ascended position is to do serious harm to the Faith itself.

Eric Lanham

 2010/4/27 9:07Profile

 Dear Enid

you asked:

"What can one say?"
much, i asked many questions, not to bait anyone, but in pure of heart, to ask.

primary question: are we one?

you stated:

"After reading this, I thought it looked like it has the potential to become one of 'those threads'"

why? All i did was to post what i felt led to post, with a clean spirit, a broekn spirit and a contrite heart. Isnt that what the LORD desires?

and you prayed

"But, God forbid."


 2010/4/27 9:36

Joined: 2009/4/20
Posts: 30


2 Peter 3:15-18 (KJV)
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

I think this sums it up with these debates, people arguing over things they don't even understand. I desire to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus.

 2010/4/27 9:36Profile

 Doug Renz

you testified:

"Trying to win an argument and forgetting how to love one another is dangerous. So many sinners that watch the body of Christ will end up in hell because of our "discussion" and arguments over doctrine."

in my way, that's what grieves me no end, just as a "for instance" with open eyes, and reading and eating of John 17, are we one?

and it seems to me, some followers say,in effect, 'i follow Paul', 'i follow Paul Washer', 'i follow Calvin', i follow todd bentley'..or 'i follow (fill in the blank)

why can't the Fruit of our lips, 'i follow Jesus' .....

BECAUSE "i believe God".

It IS that simple.

the Gift of deep abiding simple Faith.

and then man gets in the way, thats why i grieve.

 2010/4/27 9:47


you wrote:

"To give a higher value to the words spoken by Jesus during His earthly tenure than those spoken by Him in His ascended position is to do serious harm to the Faith itself."

fair point, yes, but was it not The Father, Who spoke from Heaven and said, "This is my Son with Whom I am well pleased"?

Fully man, Fully God. Jesus, Immanuel-God with us, doesnt that place Jesus' Words as THE Standard.

Please somebody, try and answer this question, in our postings, do we quote more from the Words of Jesus, what Jesus is saying to this very day, or do we quote more from the epistles, to buttress "doctrinal" arguments?

and one last note, elahham, never would i tell you to do anything, higher value/lower value, it just seems to me that we "run" into the epistles to make "doctrinal" or eccesiastical points or prejuidices. thats all my brother.

 2010/4/27 9:59

Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3233

 Re: elanham

You know the saddest thing is,not many here will "ever" change their views on anything they personally believe there interpretation of the Word is. I have always heard only God can change people, including there interpretation of his Word, so my question is, why all the fuss to the point to were threads have to be closed down period? We as Christians should know better, should we not at some point on these threads just let go and let God? Just my two cents.

Mr. Bill

 2010/4/27 11:13Profile

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