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Discussion Forum : General Topics : Can somone like Jimmy Swaggart ever be more powerful than before?

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mkal
Member



Joined: 2007/10/8
Posts: 49
Minnesota

 Re: the cross message

Brother Swaggart is one of the very few I have heard preaching the full message of the cross. This message has brought me out of the depths of depression and into a Spirit-filled life.

 2010/4/18 1:27Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

This is a difficult topic. I am torn between the thought of whether a man of God would even WANT to be placed in a position of "overseer" or "bishop" after having fallen in a public manner. I imagine that a person who has truly repented of such public disgrace would probably prefer to step aside and humbly serve the Lord outside of the position of leadership.

Jimmy Swaggart fell in front of the cameras of the entire world (at least twice). There are other men, like Roberts Liardon (who admitted to having a homosexual relationship with his youth pastor), who have attempted to find a position of leadership after having rejected the "restoration" process of the organization under which he was serving. In Liardon's case, he moved to London to take a leadership role at a Bible college.

I certainly believe that God can forgive such men. I even think that such men can serve God in ministry to this fallen world. I just have to wonder, however, why such men often continue to pursue such a position of leadership. Believers are encouraged that few should want to be teachers (James 3:1). Now, I feel that the position of an "overseer" (or "bishop") is somewhat different from other positions -- given their prerequisites that differ slightly from deacons. From what I gather from I Timothy 3:1-7, the position of an overseer is much more public (which is why they need a good reputation with outsiders).

When it comes to Jimmy Swaggart, I really don't know much about his doctrinal views, methods or practices. His heyday and fall from the pulpit happened long before I came to Christ. Ironically, the only reason that I even know who he is revolves around his very public moral failures. The same is true of other disgraced ministers (like Roberts Liardon, Ted Haggart, Paul Shepphard, etc...) who are largely known to outsiders for their failures rather than what they actually preached. I have to wonder why such individuals would continue to aspire for such a position that might have partially encouraged the conceit that took the individual's eyes off of God in the first place.


_________________
Christopher

 2010/4/18 4:05Profile









 Re:

Jimmy Swaggart is an Evangelist. Regardless of what he does in his life he must like any called man or woman of God must walk in the calling to which God put them in.

Take Dr Gene Scott. As far as I am concerned this man disgraced the name of Jesus Christ. However, his teachings are remarkably insightful, provoking and deep. Though he delivered the message, he may have ended up a castaway, as Paul said.

As for Brother Swaggart. The argument was can he be qualified to sit as an elder. When one who has been forgiven by God, would he not be counted as "Blameless"?

I remember one time a man who was delivered from homosexuality and God was moving in his life. The Pastor to which this man sat under, wanted to promote him to a higher office in the Church. The Pastor didn't know about this man's past, but when he found out about it, he was disqualified saying to the young man, "It wouldn't look good".

Now, Paul said "such were some of you". Where do we draw the line in regards to being "blameless"? In another place it says, "Blessed is the man in whom the Lord will not impute iniquity, Blessed is the man in whom his sins are covered".

Brother Swaggarts sins have certainly gone before him, yes, the whole world saw this, but God has covered his sins like he has covered mine. When you consider how people start out with the Lord, no one starts out and continues to go forward perfectly. I truly am disheartened about the lack of understanding concerning this issue. There is a legalistic mindset here that is frightfully sickening.

Because of the grace of God, we stand under a waterfall of forgiveness.

 2010/4/18 9:12









 Re:

Chris writes..........

"This is a difficult topic. I am torn between the thought of whether a man of God would even WANT to be placed in a position of "overseer" or "bishop" after having fallen in a public manner. I imagine that a person who has truly repented of such public disgrace would probably prefer to step aside and humbly serve the Lord outside of the position of leadership." And...........

" I certainly believe that God can forgive such men. I even think that such men can serve God in ministry to this fallen world. I just have to wonder, however, why such men often continue to pursue such a position of leadership."

"I have to wonder why such individuals would continue to aspire for such a position that might have partially encouraged the conceit that took the individual's eyes off of God in the first place.'

Chris, I think you have captured the essence of the Scripture that was under debate by at least some of us. In days gone by, even in the public world, when an offical was disgraced, he would step down from his office for the sake of the dignity of the office. Politicians have long since gotton away from that. It used to be that was the honorable thing to do, and as we all too well know, there is not a lot of honor in the political world anymore.

What I have noticed, particularly in the American church, is the lack of balance and a lack of accountability. One is either a legalist or a proponant of , not grace, but cheap grace. Where the name of Jesus and His honor is considered above all. Men desperately seek the limelight in this age of the "personality cult." They have a desperate desire to be recognized and have the pre-emminence. Of course all of that runs counter to the Gospel where men of God only desire that the name of Jesus be elevated and that anything that takes away from Jesus, even if it were legitimate, would have to take second place. The Apostle Paul knew fine well that he had the legitimate right to be financially supported, but , if people thought that he was only preaching the Gospel for money's sake then he would gladly make tents and avoid the controversy. This is the spirit that is so lacking in today's world.

I know that its hard for some, especially some not as mature in the faith, but there is discipline within the church and their are consequences for actions. Now the mature saint can understand that there can be forgiveness and restoration and yet there is still natural consequences. If I rob a bank tomorrow and get sentenced to 20 years, I can still find forgiveness and restoration in God, yet still have to do the time.

Chris addressed the fact that Jimmy's sins were committed long before Chris came to Christ, but he knows about them. That is exactly the point of the Scripture that some of us were debating. The original debate was about why the Scripture said what it says. Why does one, in order to qualify as an elder, have to have a good reputation with the world? There is room for this discussion without anyone being accused of being a legalizer, which, at least in the Christian world, is one of the worse things you can slander someone with. Its used as an immature way of trying to shut a reasonable discussion down and its quite sad to see............brother Frank

 2010/4/18 11:56
live4jc
Member



Joined: 2008/10/2
Posts: 203


 Re:



Hi Frank,

In connection with some things you've written, I remember once asking a missionary who had seen God working powerfully amongst the people she had worked with in Ethiopia, a question. I asked why it might be that God was working in such a way in that country, while similar operations of the Spirit could scarcely be seen, in North America. Her reply surprised me at the time. "Church discipline", was the answer she gave. It's not an answer that sounds exciting or appealing, but it is line with what took place in the early church as recorded in 1 &2 Corinthians; the situation when a believer's sins were seen to necessitate that actions be taken (to restore him in a spirit of meekness). I think 'who does the disciplining' is a matter of discussion. However, Paul wrote as a means of helping believers understand the reasoning behind church discipline that, "A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump". (I'm not applying this to Jimmy Swaggart, as I don't know what's taken place in his heart, since the initial reactions he had towards church discipline).

There's a general principle promoted in the Scripture which some have described as the 'Grace and the Government of God'. For example, after Adam and Eve sinned they were cast out of the garden of Eden. (God's government) and yet at the same time, they received Grace, as they were clothed with animal skins and also were given the promise of a future messiah who would trample Satan under his feet. For the Christian, we are told in Galatians, "whatsoever a man soeth, that shall he also reap." We are also told that all of us will give an account for things done in the body.

To me this truth does not stand in opposition to the fact that we are forgiven and cleansed by the blood of Christ (1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.). However, when 1 Timothy refers to 'qualifications' for a particular office in the church, we read about areas in which Christian ministers need to have 'proven' themselves. (I realize this doesn't speak to the larger topic we've been discussing of whether one could ever minister again, after committing adultery, but it does speak to the value of a period of discipline for those ministers who have fallen).

It seems like the Bible has always meant the example of those who have fallen ( and we have all fallen and do fall in various ways) to be for us to have 'godly fear', and of course to receive back with grace and humility those who like the man in Corinthians have turned back to the Lord, and received a fresh cleansing through Him.

I like how Paul puts it in 1 Corinthians 11:30-33 about how judging ourselves, makes God's judgement unnecessary :

"30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world."



Praise God, for how he disciplines us in love !

Hebrews 12:4-10 sums so beautifully how 'His discipline', whether administered by God indirectly through the body of Christ or directly, is carried out, from God's heart of love and for our good :


"4In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons:

"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
6because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son."[a]

7Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? 8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. 9Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it."


Love to all in Christ,
John

 2010/4/18 13:56Profile









 Re: Equal love and discipline.


"There is room for this discussion without anyone being accused of being a legalizer, which, at least in the Christian world, is one of the worse things you can slander someone with. Its used as an immature way of trying to shut a reasonable discussion down and its quite sad to see............brother Frank


Absolutely Frank:...and at the heart of this issue is whether a man is permanently disqualified from ever holding the office of Shepherd again, after committing gross immorality as one. Your position is that no, there is no restoration, holding to interpretation that he would no longer be of "good reputation."

It does appear that the Assemblies of God , that Jimmy Swaggart belonged to, did not hold to that view. They assigned an allotted time of discipline for Jimmy to be restored, which required a stepping down from the pulpit. As we know, Swaggart rebelled against that counsel, and soon addressed his restoration on his own terms. He wept on TV, with his then famous; "I have sinned!" statement. I think it made the cover of Time Magazine; then the zenith of public news.


But you could say that the view you hold is somewhat legalistic without slandering you. In the end, it is your opinion, or legal interpretation of the scripture; and as I said before, It is not one that Swaggart's denomination holds.



I too, agree with Chris. "Why would some one WANT to return to this office?" People see themselves in the ministry, and it is death to them if they depart. It is manic. Phariseeism; the hold of power, prestige, and the benefits of the Pastor role.


While I do not agree with you, I might see the benefit of such a covenant. Certainly there would be more fear in the ministry than there is now, and perhaps would induce a little more holiness. I personally have hardly EVER seen true scriptural discipline in the church, much less do I remember people actually being restored.....and certainly not a priest-class Pastor.


I think we all have to begin again, as family; as brothers and sisters. I want to see this Priest-class thing destroyed, so that a holy, unprofessional, plural eldership may arise. I see this as the model that the Lord is restoring....and the terrifying thing to the professional preacher, or the wanna-be Pastor, is that this church is not pulpit centered. It springs from the daily life of the families and individuals within the community; One as important as the other.


It does not center therefore around the meeting; but from fellowship with the Lord, and then with the local community. The MEETING follows after the community. This will surely destroy the Master of ceremonies, the Pastor/Priest role, and the pulpit he feels commissioned to preside over. Then the body will edify itself by love and faith, as each part is connected.


The PASTORS [plural and equal and unpaid...] then assure that the body is fed well, protected, and that Jesus as Lord is glorified in all aspects of the church they oversee.

 2010/4/18 14:01









 Re:

HI Brothertom, as you know, we agree on more things than we disagree. I love you as a brother and have always enjoyed the fellowship that we have had on the phone. Actually I had finished posting on this thread but I saw waht appeared to be a response to Chris's comments. I found Chris's view on this to be very succinct had tapped into perhaps some of the reasons why that Scripture in 1 Tim was written for our instruction. I was more interested in people's view on that actual Scripture and what that Scripture specifically meant. Chris and I have had many disagreements on the role of Christians in society and what if any role we should have in politics, but I did feel the need to defend his right to express his view without the comment that was made directly after he had made it. Anyway, agreeing to disagree is always a good way to end any impasse................brother Frank

 2010/4/18 14:24









 Re:

Hi John,

Some great points which I appreciate. The cross of Calvary is a perfect demonstration of the perfect combination of judgement and mercy. We have to be as wise as a serpant and as harmless as a dove.

The fact that Jimmy committed adultery is very far from the specific point that I was trying to make. I do have an example that may or not be useful. 15 years ago, I was part of a very large, good church. Numerous people were saved every week and there was such a heart to see people saved. It was a pentecostal church and every week there was "words,' given and "tongues," and "interpretaion of tongues.' There came a time when some harder "words,' came forward. Warnings of lifestyle and so on. Leadership were uncomfortable with these "stronger,' words and decided that any "word,' had to be run by the elders that sat at the front. You would go down, give the "word,' and then get, or not, permission to go up on the platform and share it.

As time went on, it was noticable that only "encouraqing,' words were being allowed to be shared. This was an uncomfortablle situation for some, but any with words of warning were considered to be "legalistic,' or "Spirit quenchers.' At the time there was a former child molester who had claimed that he had been gloriously saved, reconcilled and changed completely by the power of God. It was now a number of years since he had had his change of life and had lived exemplary since those years before. The reason any one even knew anything about it becuase he was seeking the leaderships blessing on marrying a single parent in the church, the lady had a eight year old daughter. This was granted and the couple sat through several months of marriage counciling by the leadership. The couple were married.

The policy of only encouraging words being allowed continued. Less than two years after this new policy, the Pastor, a man in his early 60s, who had been in the mninistry for decades, ran of with the secretary and a substantial amount of money. Turns out this had been going on for a few years and that the elders had refused to act on some things that should have been addressed. Some of the more stronger "words,' it now turns out, were specifically related to what was going on.

One year after the marriage of the man who had been "completely restored,' he was arrested for raping the young daughter. Now what is the point of this story. I think the point is that the church must be led by balanced men of God. The perfect balance that we see at Calvary between judgement and mercy. Can God restore and forgive a child rapist? Yes. Should that man at a later date be allowed to be in charge of children, I would say no and that this would be a natural consequence of prior behaviour. There are consequecnes to our actions. Some people do not believe that. Not all stories have a "Hollywood,' ending. I knew a man back in Scotland who had been an alcholic for 20 years and badly abused his family. He gloriously came to Christ and was radically changed. Yet, his family wanted nothing to do with him. Every Christmas he would go and leave presents at the door of his family's house, he was never acknowledged. He lived for 20 more years having never been reconciled to his family, yet praise Jesus he was reconciled to His Lord and that was enough. You see, despite the pain of the rejection from his family, he knew that he had brought the rejection on himself and and that this was a natural consequence of his actions. He had not come to Christ so that he could be reconciled to his family, he came to Christ because he was a sinner and recognized that fact. He rejoiced in his salvation and in his Lord and his family situation was a private matter that caused much pain but he continued to serve his Lord in the situation that he was called to. Many do not want to acknowledge that there are consequences for our actions, not tied to forgiveness and reconcilliation with the Lord. We are all entitled to our opinions, but in any gathering for Christians there will be a call for order and for discipline and for decisions to be made. The Scriptures guide us in these...........brother Frank

 2010/4/18 15:27









 Re: The illegitimate Church?




"Many do not want to acknowledge that there are consequences for our actions, not tied to forgiveness and reconciliation with the Lord. We are all entitled to our opinions, but in any gathering for Christians there will be a call for order and for discipline and for decisions to be made. The Scriptures guide us in these...........brother Frank... "Appolus"


I agree. This entire thread is somewhat idealistic anyway; meaning that when and if it happens, this is where I stand. It falls way down the tree , under fellowship and the bond of Peace in the body. We have become a church without consequences, because of the emerging doctrines of extreme grace, and the perversion of the concept of God's love.


I fall much closer to your thinking than you may believe, and I believe that you cannot have holiness without the holy fear of God that we may just come short of it. Remember Ananias and Sapphira. They were struck dead, receiving the consequences of lying to the Holy Spirit.
Acts 5:10

"At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband.

11.Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events."

Why did great fear fall upon the church? Because they realized that there were consequences for sin.
Without discipline the church will become a "bastard" church, the same as we as individuals will.

Hebrews 12:7

"If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."


I agree with you Frank, almost to the jot;;I believe that it's is the minor possibility that a ruling elder who fell; could and would repent, may find grace at some point to be restored to eldership. It is a possibility in my eyes..that's all. As far as Jimmy Swaggart goes.....A lot of it is TV land, and for the cameras anyway. Who knows? He is a celebrity, and lives in another world of Christianity than me. I wish him the best, and move on.

 2010/4/18 18:33
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi,i repeat...you dont know the whole story.jimmy built a huge campus with many buildings and employees with electric bills over 100,000 a month most of the money coming from records and book sales...the a g did not own anything but the tithe from his income...this made the decree of the ag impossible as a ministry business action.he also has employees ...over 100 and the families to think about...if he was to survive in the ministry at all he would have to do what he did. is he biblically qualified?i leave that to God for i too am disqualified for other reasons. i live here at his ministry and know that God ismoving through the media all over the earth but as i said prev. not so much here.i ate lunch today with a few students of the bible school.one from india one from brazil one from wisc one from wyo.all fine christian men being trained in the bible here...all on fire for God.i pray daily for this ministry and implore you to do likewise until the Holy Spirit says to stop.jimp

 2010/4/19 1:01Profile





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