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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : On Predestination by John Wesley

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 Re: Fouby

Dear Fouby

You've got to spend less time with Jacob Boehme and more time with substantial theosophical literature, like "The Four Spiritual Laws" or anything else by Campus Crusade. Arminian theology is thoroughly logical: We are separated from God by our sins, but He loves us, so He punished His Son for our sins instead, which makes it legal for Him to forgive us. Now we have to save ourselves by making a decision to accept Him as our Savior.

However, as our thoroughly logical Calvinists will point out, you cannot avail yourself of this salvation if you are not one of the Elect. The Limited Atonement was not for the whole world, because if Jesus accepted the punishment for everyone's sins, God could not send anyone to hell because it would be unjust to punish both the sinner and the Savior.

So you see that one thing Calvinists and Arminians can agree on is that God's moral governance must be circumscribed by lawyerly logic to prevent Him from drifting off into injustice. This is all you need to know to be a good evangelical theologian.

 2010/3/2 11:12
IWantAnguish
Member



Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343
VCU @ Richmond, VA

 Re:

Quote:
Now we have to save ourselves by making a decision to accept Him as our Savior.



Save ourselves?

What does that even mean?

If I could save myself I would become a Buddhist or a Hindu, I wouldn't need Jesus.

Say somebody is drowning out in the ocean, but they're unconscious.

Are you going to wait until they wake up and tell you, "Save me!"?

Or lets say your child runs out into the street to pick up a ball, and a truck is barreling down the road about to run them over. Do you wait for the child to turn to you and save himself?

Or do you run out and tackle the child out of the way and take the hit of the truck yourself?

If we save ourselves, it is no longer a salvation, but an agreement, or a transaction.

"Jesus is my broker."


_________________
Sam Yoon

 2010/3/2 13:33Profile









 Re:

IWantAnguish,

The Bible writers believed you must be born again to be saved because they did not have the benefit of modern jursiprudence, like Arminians do. If sinners were not capable of obeying God and keeping His commandments [i]before[/i] receiving a new nature, it would be unjust for God to condemn them for not keeping His commandments. How could we be guilty of breaking God's Law if we were incapable of keeping it in the first place? Therefore we save ourselves by deciding to stop making bad decisions. For more sound theology please visit Campus Crusade's website.

 2010/3/2 14:40
IWantAnguish
Member



Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343
VCU @ Richmond, VA

 Re:

Why would it be unjust for God to condemn fallen man?

Are you the judge of objective morality?

You are under the assumption that God is in the debt of man after creating mankind.

God does not owe mankind anything.

Adam sinned, and we fell in Adam, thus when Christ died under the penalty of sin, all who are in Christ are saved by association with Christ.

Can't God choose to do what He wants to do with His creation?

To create some for honor, and others for dishonor?

Doesn't it state in the Bible that God chooses some and passes over others?

Does it not also state that God loved Jacob and hated Esau? and that when Esau sought after repentance with tears that he could not find it?


_________________
Sam Yoon

 2010/3/2 16:26Profile









 Re:

Yes, the Bible teaches all those things, but the Bible writers did not have the Moral Illumination that Jacobus Arminius had.

Remind me to post the sermon "Calvinists in the Hands of an Angry God" by the legendary Methodist circuit rider, Muttonchops Mathers.

 2010/3/2 16:55
TimmyJoe
Member



Joined: 2007/6/19
Posts: 120
Panama City, FL

 Re:

Quote:
O that men would praise the Lord for this his goodness; and that they would be content with this plain account of it, and not endeavour to wade into those mysteries which are too deep for angels to fathom!



The Sovereignty of God and the resposibility of man! O' what a great mystery indeed!

 2010/3/2 17:27Profile









 Re:

Quote:
That is the false teaching of Open Theism.

Wesley rejected that presumption perfectly



Sorry boG, I didn't see this reply of yours.

I don't agree with Wesley on this topic.

 2010/3/2 18:51
IWantAnguish
Member



Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343
VCU @ Richmond, VA

 Re:

Quote:
Yes, the Bible teaches all those things, but the Bible writers did not have the Moral Illumination that Jacobus Arminius had.



I hope you're trolling / joking.

This thought directly contradicts 2 Timothy 3:16-17.


_________________
Sam Yoon

 2010/3/2 19:04Profile









 Re:

Me, a troll? I'll have you know that I am a direct descendant of Muttonchops Mathers (known to the Indians as "Thunderlips"). The man used to wade through the congregation beating sinners with a cudgel. He would gallop along with his ivory-handled revolvers and shoot wine jugs out of the hands of drunken Calvinists. Like his hero Wesley he was thunderously flatulent and one time while preaching "Calvinists in the Hands of an Angry God" at a brush arbor meeting, he broke such massive wind that it was ignited by a paraffin lamp and nearly burned the place down. After that word got around that when Muttonchops Mathers preached on hell you could almost see the flames and smell the burning sulphur.

So if you think a man of my lineage is here to joke around, think again, brother!

 2010/3/2 20:22
Fouby
Member



Joined: 2010/3/1
Posts: 4


 Re: dear LoinGirder

Wow, I never thought about it like that...
Oh wait, Yes I have, and you haven't answered anything... You might have well have made this statement to a paper cup, because that doesn't accomplish anything either.
Thanks for judging God and stepping in for me, I was afraid to think for myself for a moment.(sarcasm heavily emphasized).

Re read what I posted and try again, - I am not talking about the color of the box, or the smell of the box, I am talking about whether it is a box or a sphere....
You happen to have not only differed to a more knowledgeable source(.....), also you have made a red herring argument(irrelevant) and you told me what to think instead of engaging in a thought.

 2010/3/2 21:40Profile





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