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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : On Predestination by John Wesley

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 Re:

Quote:
Exactly. The problem being you have made an entirely Emotive argument.

Why is it a problem if it was predestined to be that way? Who are you to question what comes to pass or label things problematic?

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Rather than utilizing proofs and reason, you have brought forth statements intended to provoke an emotional response.

I couldn't help it.

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Such that, if I read your comments and go "Ew! that doesn't feel right. That's not what I want to hear!" Then you have successfully tickled the flesh of my ear instead of bringing Scripture reason to light upon my soul.

I was just carrying the view to its logical conclusions in context. I don't blame you for your slightly demeaning reaction though because you can't help it.

Quote:
Moreover, please, do not disregard the doctrine of Predestination simply because many have abused it so perversely.

That's too bad that you were predestined to go through all the trouble of saying that because I can't really do anything about the fact that I believe in free will. Do you think I'll be predestined for that glass of water soon?? I'm getting so thirsty... Oh no... What if I get dehydrated? What do you think I should do?

 2010/3/1 20:42
wind_blows
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 Re:

Quote:
That's too bad that you were predestined to go through all the trouble of saying that because I can't really do anything about the fact that I believe in free will. Do you think I'll be predestined for that glass of water soon?? I'm getting so thirsty... Oh no... What if I get dehydrated? What do you think I should do?


_____________________________________________________

Is this in any way edifying to the body of Christ. People from all over the world come to this site, both saved and unsaved, please pray before you post. How does this shine the light of Jesus to the lost, your post comes across as mocking another believer?

in Him
Ellie

 2010/3/1 20:57Profile
imnowhere
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Joined: 2009/8/1
Posts: 69


 Re:

Somewhat surprised that the two Arminian posts were made after so many warnings of how fleshly they are by the two that posted them.

Also surprised that now the scoffing, ridicule and slander is being tolerated.

Not surprised at the blatant contradictions nor the advertisement of such incredible theological ignorance.


The first reply to Greg by Yoadam was based on substance.

Posts like those of Benjoseph illustrate the level at which the two sides are able to debate at.



The site moderators ask you before you post that you consider praying and ask the Lord if you have the right spirit to serve others in the body of Christ before posting and pressing the submit button. Please also look at these scriptures: Matthew 12:36 (But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.), James 1:26 (If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain.), Colossians 4:6 (Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.).

 2010/3/1 21:17Profile









 Re:

I love you boG. (and not in a predestined sort of way) :)

I might not post in this thread anymore since others think I'm mocking you personally. I guess it just wasn't meant to be, friend.

 2010/3/1 22:35
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 Re:

There have been posts about calvinist 100's of times on sermonindex. and brethren have been able to pick out some of the extremes and take what was good.

the same with other views everyone should be able to benifit from something like this. Oh that we would humbly acknoweldge we can't figure out God! and His doctrines fully!


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 2010/3/2 0:05Profile
Fouby
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 Re: On Predestination by John Wesley

Does anyone out there like philosophy at all?

Lets just pretend for a second like we are discussing something without our preconceived notions already predetermining the outcome.
Lets define some terms.

So basically we have something called Time, now time as we know it is a term used to describe the concept of a progression of events (Some would say Time is a construct, but to agree with that statement does not attest to the fact that the word time is made up, but that time itself is created by our perception). One main point of this argument is the argument against infinite regression #2: An infinite regression backwards of events or sequence of events (time) is not possible, because today or a dependent event or being has occurred or is occurring and this would not be possible if there was an infinite regression preceding it Because infinity is insurmountable. You can't get past it by definition.

Now we tend to use the word God a lot without care of his amoral (or "physical" attributes). One of His divine unfathomable attributes is His Eternal Being. Now Eternal does not mean infinitely old, because that would require an infinite amount of time to have passed already which as mentioned previously is impossible. Eternal refers to God's Transcendence, that He transcends the order of events (time) and creates time and all other portions of creation. Another key feature of God that comes into the equation is that God is the uncaused first cause, that He is the Creator.

Point 1 is God is outside of Time.
Point 2 is God is the Creator.
Handy argument for transcendence
This is usually poorly explained as some sort of deism... But is to properly be understood in terms of Trinitarian Revelation, God's actions within time must be understood somehow, other wise This statement nullifies any divine actions within time (including the traditional view of Creation). We must Understand that We define the Homoousion (the infinite one essence of God comprised of the Trinity) as the External or outside of time revelation (The Father), The internal physical (inside time) revelation of God through creation and the Life of Christ (Jesus), And the internal spiritual (inside time)revelation of God (Holy Spirit).

Considering the things previous stated:

This is a much heavier thought than you have thought before.
Check it out
If God is creating time from an outside of time perspective, how can God create without knowing exactly how that will effect the future?
We tend to view God as one who did not "For-see" His creative act, and it fell, and He had to pay the price of the cross to redeem it again. I appologize for the rhetoric

It if God sees the future and the past from an outside perspective, than He must know the effects that every molecule has on the "solid object" of the future. There can be no fluidity in future events from the Divine Creator's perspective.

God, the unity of the trinity, must be the perceiver of the fullness of creation from the first moment of creation.

How could Christ not be the lamb Slain from the foundation of the earth? How else could we be judged but from the book of life which was written before the foundation of the earth?

It is not that I am a staunch old churchmen why I read the bible and preach the sovereignty of God. I am 20, I am at university voraciously searching for the truth. And I can not imagine a possible universe any other way other than a determinist perspective.

God new what He was getting Himself into when He created the world, He knew what He was getting us into as well.

That brings us some pretty good light to read Romans 8:29-30
Whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son: -- Whom he did predestinate, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

To Foreknow is axiomatic from an eternal perspective, as well as "predestinate" would be the same as to "create" from an eternal perspective.

All of this said, I would ask for someone with good reason and logic to convince me otherwise, because right now I can not even imagine another possible possibility.




 2010/3/2 0:36Profile
IWantAnguish
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Joined: 2006/6/15
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 Re:

I find that those with an appreciation for the grandness of God find rest in His sovereignty...

While those with a higher view of man's freedom value the sovereign hand of God less.

People enjoy making a dogmatic / false model of Calvin, and proceed to vilify that model for whatever reason... I would propose the reason being that they do not enjoy their freewill being stripped from them... as if they have anything of their own to begin with...

"What do you have that you have not received, and if you have received it why do you boast?"

lol... I digress.

Ultimately the question boils down to whether salvation is completely reliant upon God, or does it partly originate from man? We know that Scripture clearly states God acts for His own glory, and that no flesh shall glory in His presence.

I'm glad that sanctification is a gift of God, as salvation was / is / will be... because if it was left up to me, I would remain stagnant in my sinful state, without any desire to move towards Him.

May God grant us the willingness the obey Him... For me in my flesh, there is no good thing.


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Sam Yoon

 2010/3/2 5:12Profile
hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
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 Re: On Predestination by John Wesley

Myself think there is a need for balance, it is fully possible to be convinced Wesley are "right" on his view of predestination, and have sweet fellowship with someone who thinks Spurgeon was right, also it is fully possible to discuss these things without any thing should get "ugly" , personal remarks etc.

I think it is healthy to talk of these things if..... if done in a right way, since its a dear subject to us, the doctrines of God and his ways, we easily get "excited" and want to share our opinion of what scripture says, but we should be doing so in the uttermost cautiousness and prayerfulness, i enjoy something i heard brother Zac Poonen say in a message. He said something like "when i pray i am a calvinist, when i preach i am arminian."

what he went on to say and explain was when he prays he prays to a sovereign God that will do all things he pray in faith for, no good praying to a God and ask him to save someones should if it is all up the human to decide for himself whether he wants to be saved or not, and when he preach he preached as an arminian urging men to make a decision to come to the Lord, surrender their lives etc"

Of course brother Poonen explained much more in better words, but i dont remember what video it was from, i hope i got his "point" explained true to the message, i will post video later if i find it.

But i think it is true for us all, when we pray for God to save someone we pray trusting his sovereignty, when we preach we preach and try by Gods grace to open their eyes by his spirit so they can see their need and cast themselves upon Christ.


EDIT: the video where poonen shares his "balanced view"

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpHl7pEl4tw]Part 1[/url]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCuvPdKRqLs]Part 2[/url]


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CHRISTIAN

 2010/3/2 6:30Profile
whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

I speculate this won't go anywhere, but, I think a parallel emphasis to everyone's "opinion" of God's mind on this matter should be a focus on what Scripture says. If I read 1John2:29 in parallel with 1John 4:7 in parallel with 1John 5:1, I come to the inescapable conclusion that God's act of regeneration precedes our love for God, precedes our practicing righteousness and finally and most importantly for this discussion, precedes our believing. If this is a correct interpretation, then Romans 8:29, and multiple other texts suggesting individual election/choosing/ordaining/predestination by God tends to make sense in the total.

Regeneration, as I see in 1John5:1, precedes faith. If someone wants to apply human logic in addition to spiritual interpretation then in either case the inescapable conclusion is that God elects some and not all and this election is manifested in regeneration of some and not all and God thereby gives faith to some and not all and this regeneration is on the basis of God's good pleasure not on the basis of forseen faith; especially if faith is a gift of God in the first place which is also Scriptural. That is not an argument for a system of theology, but rather simple Scripture interpretation

 2010/3/2 8:42Profile









 Re:

Quote:
There have been posts about calvinist 100's of times on sermonindex. and brethren have been able to pick out some of the extremes and take what was good.

the same with other views everyone should be able to benifit from something like this. Oh that we would humbly acknoweldge we can't figure out God! and His doctrines fully!



Brother Greg,

Seem's like John Wesly believed he had ths figured out. I still find it confusing that you would kinda rebuke and forbid people from postig articles on this subject and then post them yourself. So are people free again to start posting articles on different view's than this one?

 2010/3/2 10:36





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