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Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3706
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 Re:

scripture plainly states none are blameless. If any person is blameless before God, they must have Christ in them.

Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Paul, in his excellency in the Jewish religious regime of the Law, says even in all his excellent workings, he was nothing and counted even all his excellencies of his religious life nothing, that he might obtain Christ.

Php 3:4 ¶ Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Php 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Paul knew that he had no good in him, calling himself the chiefest of sinners, with only one way of overcoming his old man nature and that was in Christ.

Paul says he is carnal, unregenerate, and sin dwells in him. How can you miss that we are sold under sin and no good thing dwells in us. This is our sin nature and Paul says there is only one way out.

Romans 7:14-25 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary
Romans 7:25
This whole chapter was of essential service to the Reformers in their contendings with the Church of Rome. When the divines of that corrupt church, in a Pelagian spirit, denied that the sinful principle in our fallen nature, which they called "Concupiscence," and which is commonly called "Original Sin," had the nature of sin at all, they were triumphantly answered from this chapter, where--both in the first section of it, which speaks of it in the unregenerate, and in the second, which treats of its presence and actings in believers--it is explicitly, emphatically, and repeatedly called "sin." As such, they held it to be damnable. (See the Confessions both of the Lutheran and Reformed churches). In the following century, the orthodox in Holland had the same controversy to wage with "the Remonstrants" (the followers of Arminius), and they waged it on the field of this chapter. (2) Here we see that Inability is consistent with Accountability. (See Ro 7:18; Ga 5:17). "As the Scriptures constantly recognize the truth of these two things, so are they constantly united in Christian experience. Everyone feels that he cannot do the things that he would, yet is sensible that he is guilty for not doing them. Let any man test his power by the requisition to love God perfectly at all times. Alas! how entire our inability! Yet how deep our self-loathing and self-condemnation!" [HODGE]. (3) If the first sight of the Cross by the eye of faith kindles feelings never to be forgotten, and in one sense never to be repeated--like the first view of an enchanting landscape--the experimental discovery, in the latter stages of the Christian life, of its power to beat down and mortify inveterate corruption, to cleanse and heal from long-continued backslidings and frightful inconsistencies, and so to triumph over all that threatens to destroy those for whom Christ died, as to bring them safe over the tempestuous seas of this life into the haven of eternal rest--is attended with yet more heart--affecting wonder draws forth deeper thankfulness, and issues in more exalted adoration of Him whose work Salvation is from first to last (Ro 7:24-25). (4) It is sad when such topics as these are handled as mere questions of biblical interpretation or systematic theology. Our great apostle could not treat of them apart from personal experience, of which the facts of his own life and the feelings of his own soul furnished him with illustrations as lively as they were apposite. When one is unable to go far into the investigation of indwelling sin, without breaking out into an, "O wretched man that I am!" and cannot enter on the way of relief without exclaiming "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord," he will find his meditations rich in fruit to his own soul, and may expect, through Him who presides in all such matters, to kindle in his readers or hearers the like blessed emotions (Ro 7:24-25). So be it even now, O Lord!

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2010/2/27 23:56Profile









 Re:

Quote:
scripture plainly states none are blameless.

That is a lie. The scripture "plainly states" that some were blameless. The rational way to reconcile these things is to expect that statements about individuals are as specific and literal as they sound while statements about groups may be expected to contain exceptions without undermining the primary message of the assertion. To twist the statements about individuals in order to disallow exceptions in statements about groups is the wrong way to reconcile such passages.

Quote:
Paul knew that he had no good in him, calling himself the chiefest of sinners, with only one way of overcoming his old man nature and that was in Christ.

His "old man nature"? The "old man" represents "the former conversation" or way of living, it does not represent the "former nature". That's just reading worldly doctrines into the scripture.

Quote:
Paul says he is carnal, unregenerate, and sin dwells in him.

How can we miss that he only spoke in present tense for literary effect? The surrounding chapters in Romans go on and on and on about how saints (including Paul) are FREE from sin, are NOT sold under sin, are NOT carnal but are spiritual, are slaves to whom THEY present THEMSELVES. How can we misinterpret Romans 7 in such a way as to contradict the entire bible?

Quote:
How can you miss that we are sold under sin and no good thing dwells in us.

This is describing a person who hasn't repented yet. If you haven't repented of sin then you are a slave to sin. If you serve your flesh as God and make it the rule of your life then you are rightly called "carnal". This is all by choice, not by birth. The man sold under sin has sold himself into slavery for pleasure. No one else sold him. God didn't sell him. Adam didn't sell him. His mommy didn't sell him. His childhood friends didn't sell him. The whole passage is describing a sinner (not a saint) who is experiencing the condemning light of the law.

Quote:
This is our sin nature and Paul says there is only one way out.

There is only one way out of condemnation. That doesn't mean you have to be in condemnation in the first place. Romans 7 does not support the doctrine of total depravity. Rom 7 REFUTES the idea that sin has anything to do with one's nature.

It shows how one's nature groans in captivity to persistent carnality. This carnality is a choice and the passage must be understood in this light.

"some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness."

 2010/2/28 10:56
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3706
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

""That is a lie. The scripture "plainly states" that some were blameless. The rational way to reconcile these things is to expect that statements about individuals are as specific and literal as they sound while statements about groups may be expected to contain exceptions without undermining the primary message of the assertion. To twist the statements about individuals in order to disallow exceptions in statements about groups is the wrong way to reconcile such passages.""

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Who is blameless to this topic?

Quote:

""His "old man nature"? The "old man" represents "the former conversation" or way of living, it does not represent the "former nature". That's just reading worldly doctrines into the scripture.""

There must be new quickened containers for the new nature of Christ in you, the old container will be distroyed to contain our new birth, Christ in you the Hope of Glory. Completely new creatures in Christ, a new race of Christ Ones.

Lu 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Lu 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born again?
.
Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

This is a regenerate man, "New Man". This is not the unregenerate "Old Man". Two natures, A new creation. This is not a 49 Ford, pimped ride. This is a brand new on going new creation a perpetually new Ford. This rebirth is the freshness and ongoing salvation of the New Creature in Christ Jesus. Born Again unto new life in Christ.

If this is not a complete new creature in Christ and Him now living my life in me then I see no salvation in Christ our Christ in me, Which is my only hope of Glory.

New life and new nature unto justification by the Christ that is in me.

Galatians 2:16-21 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Glory and the final mystery that fulfills the Word of God in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is our perfection, new nature; Christ.



The rest later;

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2010/3/1 1:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Who is blameless to this topic?

auntie Liz and uncle Zach. Probably also Abel and Enoch.Maybe Cornelius. Could be lots of people.

I get the impression you might not know what 'nature' means or are unintentionally using it in different ways.

You've got a lot of metaphors for conversion/repentance but you seem to be getting stuck on the language of the metaphors instead of what they represent.

I can't guess what you think these metaphors represent because I don't follow your use of the word 'nature'. Either you are switching definitions or using it very loosely or it's not the best word for your purpose.

Quote:
if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor

The destruction of sin is attributed to the one who sinned and not to a new nature.

Quote:
warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus

If men need a new nature then what good will warning them do? If their nature is wrong then they will not heed the warning. If their nature is the problem then they will refuse any teaching that might work to present them perfect in Christ. If the problem of sin lies in men's nature instead of in their free choice then evangelism is dumb. They need a new nature and preaching at them won't give them one. Otherwise we could preach the whole world into having a new nature and they wouldn't be able to refuse.

 2010/3/1 9:19
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi,Jesus said why do you call me good for there is none good.simple ...so that is why i do not care what you say jimp

 2010/3/1 9:33Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
jimp said:
hi, Jesus said why do you call me good for there is none good. simple ...so that is why i do not care what you say

There are plenty of good men that you should care.

2 Samuel 18:27 And the watchman said, I think the running of the first one is like the running of Ahimaaz the son of Zadok. And the king said, [b]He is a good man[/b], and comes with good tidings.

Psalms 37:23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delights in his way. & Psalms 112:5

Proverbs 14:14 a good man shall be satisfied from above himself.

Mattew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things:

Luke 23:50 And, behold, there was a man named [b]Joseph[/b], a member of the council and he [b]was a good man[/b], and just:

Acts 11:24 For [b]he[/b] (Barnabas) [b]was a good man[/b], and full of the Holy Spirit and of faith: and many people were added unto the Lord.

Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet perhaps for a good man some would even dare to die.

 2010/3/1 9:54Profile









 Re:

The bible says there were good men.

EDIT (ha, Logic beat me to it)

 2010/3/1 9:54









 Re: Born in Sin with sin nature or not?

Quote:
If men need a new nature then what good will warning them do? If their nature is wrong then they will not heed the warning. If their nature is the problem then they will refuse any teaching that might work to present them perfect in Christ. [b]If the problem of sin lies in men's nature instead of in their free choice then evangelism is dumb.[/b] They need a new nature and preaching at them won't give them one. Otherwise we could preach the whole world into having a new nature and they wouldn't be able to refuse.

I confess I have deliberately stayed away from this thread, and I have not read any of the preceding posts, although previously I glanced in to see who was discussing the question.

The reason I'm posting now, is that the paragraph quoted above, is bulging with human reasoning, and in no way reflects gospel truths as found in scripture.

I could break the quote down sentence by sentence, but that always seems like an attack on the poster. I want to make clear this is not the focus of my contribution.

Some time ago, I read a very interesting article from the leader of the Iona Community (Scotland), pointing out that when at the Council of Whitby, a large group of English churches joined the Roman Catholic communion, there were a significant number of churches which did not, who retained Celtic roots, and different view of God's purpose in Christ, than that purported by Roman Catholicism.

This different view, has, I believe, been creeping back into the understanding of the invisible church, namely, that Christ died to destroy the works of devil (sin and death) in mankind, in order to restore the image of God in those who would believe.

The Roman Catholic presentation - that Christ was strained beyond human appreciation, and His death insufficient to save man; that faith in Him must be complemented with faith in His mother, Mary, humans elevated to an unnatural state of sainthood, and works; for the mirage of salvation to shade the distant horizon of our view - is far from biblical truth. But, the ever-changing organism of Roman Catholic theology, has perceptibly influenced Reformational theology for the last five centuries.

benjoseph, this is not your fault, but you and many others are a victim of it. With this in mind, I urge you to re-examine scriptures both New and Old Testament, for the more original basis of the Celtic claim that God's original nature is deeply embedded in humankind, despite the Fall, and that Christ came to redeem us that He may restore us more fully than our blighted minds can grasp.

The 'sin nature' is a [u]spiritual[/u] reference. That is one key.

Another key is in accepting that, after the Fall, God maintained a relationship with Adam and subsequent men, despite the change in their spiritual nature and its bent.

Yet another, is in the language and thesis expressed by Paul in his Roman letter.

The appearance of Jesus Christ, God - the Logos - in the Flesh, is anther key. There was only one 'Son' of God in the sense that He was, after the Fall, but Luke 3:38 rightly puts Adam in that category, notwithstanding Gen 5:3; note: [b]in his own likeness[/b].

However, when we look at Ephesians 2:1 And you [i]hath he quickened[/i], who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, [u]hath quickened us together with Christ[/u],


That phrase 'children of disobedience', which so easily reminds us of Adam, is also translated 'children of unbelief'. When you think about it, 'disobedience' is a very [i]doing[/i] word, which is quite consistent with both Roman Catholic and modern Bible translations. Whereas 'unbelief' is a much more [i]being[/i] word; it's more of a statement of [u]condition[/u], than [u]action[/u].


Therefore, the call to Repent, to Be Baptised, 'to Believe', seem to be offered to us by God as ACTIONS which will change our state of 'being'. Now, that is not complicated. A person who [i]lies[/i], is called [i]a liar[/i]. It's a simple translation we make all the time about all kinds of compliance in our everyday world. Similarly, an unbeliever who [i]begins to believe[/i], is instantly translated from being a child of unbelief (or active disobedience), to being a child of faith, a child of God, a son of God. Heb 2:10.

This [u]is[/u] a change in spiritual nature, which will have implications rolling out of every part of the person's life, just as 'sin' does.

Now see Rom 6:2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.


Thanks for reading all this. I'm out of time for the moment.



 2010/3/1 9:57









 Re:

Quote:
the paragraph quoted above, is bulging with human reasoning,

Well I sure hope it it is. And thank you for acknowledging the fact that I am human.

Are there any flaws in the reasoning I've presented that would invalidate my conclusion?

It would be more helpful if you dissected my post line by line. I wouldn't be offended. I can't tell what you disagree with otherwise. Your post didn't make much sense to me.

 2010/3/1 11:05









 Re:

Alive-to-God are you a woman?

 2010/3/1 11:26





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