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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Born in Sin with sin nature or not?

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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Christinyou said: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But we already know that the Father is drawing all mankind because Jesus has been lifted up (John 12:32). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We know this does not mean all mankind of the world. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wrong, God is drawing all men to him. Quit denying Scripture."""" I am not denying scripture, but only studing in the Greek and many other scholars that are much more learned by the Holy Spirit than I am.

Yes, you are denying scripture. Scripture claims that God will draw all men unto Himself, you deny this.

You say that God draws only some to Himself.

 2010/3/4 19:20Profile
nearthecross
Member



Joined: 2009/5/13
Posts: 74


 Re:

Enough said with your response to me, Logic. You condemn yourself with your own words. If you keep this up, your
account will be deleted like your friend Jesse Morell's.
Please repent.

 2010/3/4 23:56Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
nearthecross said:
Enough said with your response to me, Logic. You condemn yourself with your own words.

Yes! I have condemed my self before God so that He will be justified!!! But now I am forgiven because I took responcibility of my own sins & didn't blame it on my nature or birth.

Quote:
If you keep this up, your account will be deleted like your friend Jesse Morell's.

Keep what up? If I should keep telling people to stop blaming their nature &/or birth for the cause of their sin, that my account will be deleted? I thought this is a Christian board.

Quote:
Please repent.

Why would you tell me to repent of telling the truth?

 2010/3/5 9:47Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

this discussion is going the wrong way, i encourage discussion that stays on subject, for a long while it did, now it is turning into personal accusations, heresy calling etc.

Do talk and discuss scripture, ask questions, do accept the fact not all share your conviction of what scripture says. As long as we search the scriptures , speak about them in a way that is edifying it is ok, but now i see many take it personal when the other do not see it the same way, brethren and sisters, do be long suffering towards one another. If you have shared all your convictions about a topic and the other still hold fast to theirs, it is unlikely they will change their doctrines because of calling them a heretic or holding a heresy in their belief system.

When we get personal, even tho we are right we are still wrong no matter if what we believe is the truth.

All are welcome here, those who love Finney, and those who love Spurgeon. I think it is "healthy" these meet and talk, try search scripture together and reason with one another. as long as the discussion have the aroma of Christ, and edify the readers and participants in a way that provokes them to stay away from sin, become more loving, examine themselves to discover any christlikness in their walk, behavior , speech etc...

For now i will leave this open because i have hope for those that have walked with Christ for a season to be able to see how they could "redirect" this discussion back to a better way.

Or this will end as many previous ones.

please saints prayerfully consider your post, for attitudes, motives and so on.

"play the ball , not the man"

in Jesus Christ

Christian


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2010/3/5 10:51Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Logic,

Do you have a response for what I pointed out about the pronouns in John 6:44?

With care in Christ...


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2010/3/5 12:11Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
TaylorOtwell asked:
Do you have a response for what I pointed out about the pronouns in John 6:44?

Yes.
God is drawing all men John 12:32, but some refuse.

Man is condemnd because they refuse God.
It is not that God refuses man that they are condmend, as you imply.

 2010/3/5 12:23Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Logic,

I already explained John 12 in its context. Do have any in depth response for my analysis of that passage from an exegetical perspective?

P.S. - I agree with you that men are condemned because they refuse God. Men actively refuse God, and God is not obligated to save them. Simply because he chooses to redeem some does not taint God's mercy, because it would have been perfectly fair for him to condemn all men, as all men sin against him.

With care in Christ...


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2010/3/5 13:01Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
TaylorOtwell asked:
I already explained John 12 in its context. Do have any in depth response for my analysis of that passage from an exegetical perspective?

I take it that you figure that the Father is not drawing all men as Scruipture claims He does.
That is why you think that all men are not being given to Jesus.

My claim is that God draws all mankind as Scripture says, but men refuse (they do not come as they are drawn). The Father will not bring them to Christ who refuse Him. That is why all men are not being given to Jesus.

Quote:
agree with you that men are condemned because they refuse God.

But is seems that your theology claims diferently (that is if you lean toward Calvin or the reformed).
They claim that God refuses man (because man has no part in salvation according to them), and that is why the Father does not give them to Christ.

Quote:
and God is not obligated to save them.

In order for God not to be partial (not having undue bias); if God chooses on man, He must choose the other (both men being equal). However, God uses criteria for His electon in order for it not to be arbitrary.

Quote:
Simply because he chooses to redeem some does not taint God's mercy, because it would have been perfectly fair for him to condemn all men, as all men sin against him.

The question is [b]HOW[/b] God chooses while staying unbiased and not arbitrary?

 2010/3/5 15:42Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Logic,

I understand your claims. But, I presented you with evidence in the Scriptures that contradict your claims.

Can you prove as false my exposition of John 12, or offer a more Scripturally sound exposition given the context of the passage? Also, can you discuss the fact that your view of God's drawing forces you to make the pronouns in John 6:44 two completely different people?

John 6:44 contradicts your position. In my opinion, it is a very clear passage that says the one whom is drawn will be raised up. Coming to John 12, we can look at the context of the Greeks coming to the disciples to see what Jesus meant by "all men". We know it can't mean every man individually because John 6:44 says those who are drawn will be raised up to eternal life. Therefore, given the context of the Greeks coming to the disciples, it is a view in keeping with the harmony of the Scriptures to understand Jesus to be teaching the disciples that He will draw men from every tribe and tongue to Himself.

With care in Christ...


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2010/3/5 18:03Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

It says that those who come to Christ have been drawn, and will be raised up. In other words, it is not that everyone who is drawn will be raised up, but that those who come to Christ will be raised up.

John 6:45 gives even more insight as to the drawing, as it says that those who "heard" AND "learn" from the Father will [b]come[/b]. To it is not that everyone who is drawn will be raised up, but that those who both "heard" and "learn", those who both are "drawn" and "[b]come[/b]" will be raised up.

God is drawing all men to Himself, but not all men will be raised to life, because not all mean "learn" and "come" as the Spirit draws them. God is drawing all men unto Himself, but men resist the Holy Spirit.

 2010/3/5 21:12Profile





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