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Discussion Forum : Articles and Sermons : Gifts of the Holy Spirit by J. Vernon McGee

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hoohoou
Member



Joined: 2009/12/11
Posts: 212
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
though if you grew up Pentecostal/Charismatic like I did then you've probably not been exposed to much of it.



Yeah, that's me. I discovered the teaching a few months ago and did some reading on it, though certainly not any serious study. The fact I grew up as you stated is most likely why it seems so "out there", because the idea is, in the circles I grew up in. That's not to say we are right, that was just the thinking.

Quote:
t's not necessarily heretical, and may be in part a sound way of perceiving it.



I think we were writing at the same time because I tried to say that in my last post. I don't think they are heretical. I will just have a hard time learning from them. I don't know that I could trust them.

Again, I just think this teaching takes way too much liberty with interpretation when I can find the opposite argument in one specific verse. My biggest complaint about Mr. McGee is his interpretation of 1 Corinthians chapter 13. He basically used the entire chapter as a rebuke to tongues. He even said that verse 11 is saying that speaking in tongues is like talking baby talk and we should grow up and stop it. Well, if you're going to use that logic then we should disregard all prophesy and stop giving another cent to the poor and needy and not allow ourselves to be martyred. And Jesus was wrong when he said if we have faith the size of a mustard seed we can cast mountains into the sea.

The interpretation they use just seems very selective to me.

Very good thoughts on the subject though and it will give me something to pray and think about.


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Matt Smith

 2010/1/30 12:45Profile
Berry4Christ
Member



Joined: 2010/1/30
Posts: 2


 Re:



In my Bible study this past week we studied signs and wonders, and who they applied to in Bible Times. This is the outline of the Bible Study that might shed some light on this subject (BTW- i am a Baptist)

1.Signs & Wonders
A. The Jews, as a nation, began with signs
i. Abraham- circumcision (Rom. 4:11)
ii. Moses
1.Confirming God’s direction: (Exo. 4:1-9, 9,
17,28, 30)
2. Confirming God’s leadership (Exo 13:9)
3. Confirming God’s worship/Sabbath (Ex 31:13, 17)
4.Signs is one way God chose Israel (Deu. 4:34;
6:22).
B. The Old Testament Jews lived by signs
i. God’s word was a sign (Deu. 11:18)
ii. Stones of remembrance (Jos. 4:6)
iii.Test for God’s direction (1 Sam. 10:7)
iv. The Virgin Birth was a sign (Isa. 7:14)
C. The Jews demanded signs from the Lord Jesus Christ
i. Mat. 12:38-40
1.Jesus had already given them dozens of signs:
a. Mat 4:23-24, 8:4, 9:6-8, etc.
b. The resurrection was the final sign
ii. Mat 16:1-4
1. They could not read the signs of the times
D. The Jews require a sign, not the Gentiles
i. (1 Cor. 1:22; John. 4:48).
ii. Gentiles seek “wisdom”
E. The Lord Jesus Christ said that an evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign (Mat. 12:39).
i. Those who seek signs and wonders today are on dangerous ground b/c the Antichrist will deceive the world with signs and wonders (Rev. 13:13-14; 2 Thes. 2:8-12).


Does this help?

Berry

 2010/1/30 12:49Profile
hoohoou
Member



Joined: 2009/12/11
Posts: 212
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.



I've heard that mainly preached and taught as being when Christ returns. I don't know though. This is something I'm going to have to really pray about and study on. And as far as the post-millennial's... I had to look to see how you spelled it. Not quite there in my studies. Give me about 20 years at my rate and we can have a good talk:)


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Matt Smith

 2010/1/30 12:53Profile
hoohoou
Member



Joined: 2009/12/11
Posts: 212
Texas

 Re:

ignore this


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Matt Smith

 2010/1/30 13:04Profile
Jeremy221
Member



Joined: 2009/11/7
Posts: 1471


 Re: Clarification

Thank you for your well worded response Anastasis. You expounded what I meant to convey originally. I actually did not grow up in churchs where the gifts were sought or used other than teaching and administrative ones. Occassionally, one might hear of someone being healed after hundreds or even thousands of people prayed for them but this is rare. Lip service is given to the Holy Spirit in these churchs but faith that He remains the same yesterday, today and forever and the command to seek after the Gifts of the Spirit is never taught, in part, because it is believed that they have ceased. Honestly after sitting in these churchs for years and years I am unable to recall ever learning anything from any particular sermon. Currently I am part of a Plymouth Brethern Assembly and this is one place where there is a mixture of those who do and do not believe in the cessasion of gifts who teach. When the one who believes God teachs, I am edified every time. His teaching has power and authority though he teaches gently. The others, though they are wonderful older brothers do no more than cite various commentaries and provide superficial explanations of the text. Again these people are wonderful, kind and generous people and in fact, though they do not believe in the Gifts of the Spirit they have a culture of faith to send and finance missionaries. I have a few aunts, uncles and cousins that are serving in missions with them and they have seen God provide for them without needing to raise support to do so. There is also the custom of having a Spirit led Breaking of Bread service where any brother in the assembly is allowed to share thoughts on Scripture, a song or prayer. This can be very edifying and I have seen many times how God has used it to prepare those for what will be discussed in the Sunday school classes or later in the sermon. I have said all this to say that they have only entered into a few areas of what is available to them by faith. In the next breath, I can look at myself and see how I have not entered into all the fullness of life in faith. There are areas where I think and know something to be true but have yet to see it realized. In the same manner, by faith some teachers here have understood certain passages and sections of Scripture but because unbelief, whether willfully or ignorantly, have not entered into the realm of the Gifts and their implications in Scripture and life.

One last note, I have often prayed and asked God why we do not see the Gifts of the Spirit here in America very often but elsewhere around the world where people take the Word of God as the Word of God and see Him work. The response has been that there is very little faith here.

Peace

 2010/1/30 13:16Profile
hoohoou
Member



Joined: 2009/12/11
Posts: 212
Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Those who seek signs and wonders today are on dangerous ground b/c the Antichrist will deceive the world with signs and wonders (Rev. 13:13-14; 2 Thes. 2:8-12).



I'm not seeking a sign as proof of Christ and His Word. Jesus healed the lame man to prove to the Pharisees that He had the power to forgive sins, and he called the forgiveness of sins the greater miracle (Mark 2:9-10). I have the Holy Spirit bearing witness within me that my sins are forgiven. I know that Jesus did a miracle in my life, just ask my wife. That is all the sign I need. My point is not that I need a sign but that there is nowhere in the Bible that says specifically that miracles ended. But James 5:14-15 says that we can ask the Lord to heal us and he will. Someone earlier said that the reason that the Lord doesn't do miracles is that we're doing something wrong. We are doing a lot wrong, but in this instance we are putting our faith in man and not in God. Instead of searching our souls about why we don't see these things some people have reinterpreted scripture or gone to 19 verses to formulate a theory on it. God says that if we pray in faith that the Lord will raise up him who is sick.

So that this doesn't deteriorate into an argument let me say this. If anything I'm saying is coming across as terse or unloving please know that it is not my intent. I do feel strongly about it, but do not want to cause hurt feelings. These threads are only beneficial if the arguments are presented with the love of Christ and the end goal is learning something. We are dealing with brothers and sisters. I appreciate the verses given by Berry4Christ and I'd like to go through them and see what they are saying.


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Matt Smith

 2010/1/30 13:26Profile
Giggles
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Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

Totally forgiven chapel! God bless!!


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Paul

 2010/1/30 13:49Profile
Berry4Christ
Member



Joined: 2010/1/30
Posts: 2


 Re:

(BTW, our Pastor believes that the Word of God needs to be rightly divided)

What follows are more of my notes from our Bible Study this past week:

The Apostles were the ones that had the gifts of healing, and operated in the power of signs and wonders, and during the first half of the book of Acts went out to the Jews (not the Gentiles). What was the requirement to be an apostle? Acts chapter 1 tells us that it had to be one who witnessed the resurrection of Jesus Christ: “21. Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22. Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.”

Also, another thing to consider is that at the beginning of Paul’s minsitry he had tremendous powers of healing. However, later on, at the end of his ministry, just before he went to Rome to eventually die, he could not heal himself, or others as he had previously been able to do, by the power of God--- Paul could not heal Trophimus (2 Tim. 4:20). Instead of healing Timothy, Paul gave him medical advice (1 Tim. 5:23).

My pastor teaches that in regards to healing today (a sign & wonder), that power has been transferred from the Apostles (who were all Jews) to the elders (The Bible uses Elder, Presbyter, Overseer, Bishop, Shepherd, Pastor interchangeably and they all refer to a single office in the church) of the Church: “14. Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.”)

John 7:24 tells us to judge righteous judments. We should judge according to the Word of God because that is what we will be judged by. We are also to opeate in our strength by the power of the Holy Spirit and operate in our weaknesses by the mercy of the Holy Spirit.

Not sure if this helps, or not, but i wanted to share this with you.

Berry


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those who seek signs and wonders today are on dangerous ground b/c the Antichrist will deceive the world with signs and wonders (Rev. 13:13-14; 2 Thes. 2:8-12).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I'm not seeking a sign as proof of Christ and His Word. Jesus healed the lame man to prove to the Pharisees that He had the power to forgive sins, and he called the forgiveness of sins the greater miracle (Mark 2:9-10). I have the Holy Spirit bearing witness within me that my sins are forgiven. I know that Jesus did a miracle in my life, just ask my wife. That is all the sign I need. My point is not that I need a sign but that there is nowhere in the Bible that says specifically that miracles ended. But James 5:14-15 says that we can ask the Lord to heal us and he will. Someone earlier said that the reason that the Lord doesn't do miracles is that we're doing something wrong. We are doing a lot wrong, but in this instance we are putting our faith in man and not in God. Instead of searching our souls about why we don't see these things some people have reinterpreted scripture or gone to 19 verses to formulate a theory on it. God says that if we pray in faith that the Lord will raise up him who is sick.

So that this doesn't deteriorate into an argument let me say this. If anything I'm saying is coming across as terse or unloving please know that it is not my intent. I do feel strongly about it, but do not want to cause hurt feelings. These threads are only beneficial if the arguments are presented with the love of Christ and the end goal is learning something. We are dealing with brothers and sisters. I appreciate the verses given by Berry4Christ and I'd like to go through them and see what they are saying.


 2010/1/30 14:31Profile
rufnrust
Member



Joined: 2010/1/9
Posts: 244
Indiana

 Re:gifts etc...

Hey Anastasis
Since we are new creations in Christ,transformed,metamorphosis has taken place. We who were mere maggots are now beautiful butterflies. We are the greatest of all signs and wonders! Any study on this subject must build on this truth and reality.

ruf


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Russell

 2010/1/30 15:10Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

According to Peter's sermon on the day of Pentecost, citing Joel 2:28-32, the apostle declared that the entire age would be a prophetic age, an age of the Spirit. This was a great hope of the prophets (especially Isaiah), and they tied the outpouring of the Spirit to being part of the Messianic task. People have embraced cessationist positions regarding the gifts simply because they have little to no understanding of the hope of the prophets, or the purpose of the outpouring of the Spirit, and the giving of the gifts that accompanied Christ in His ascension ministry.

According to Ephesians 4:11-17, and 1 Corinthians 12-14, the purpose for which the gifts have been given are so that the church of Jesus Christ might grow up into Him who is the head, to attain corporate maturity, stature, and unity. The gifts were not given for the limited purposes often stated by cessationist preachers. They were not given merely to validate the initial preaching of the gospel, nor to produce the writings of the New Testament. Of course, they have served these purposes. But nowhere in all of Scripture do you find any remote assertion that they existed for these purposes alone.

Indeed, to assert the cessation of some or all of the gifts of the Spirit is to assert that we are to accomplish the ministry of the Church in our own human power and strength. 1 Corinthians 12-14 shows how dependent you and I are upon these gifts to become the people of God we must become. I need apostles, prophets, teachers, tongues, etc., to operate in the Church. Likewise, you need them as well. Otherwise, you will never become what God would have you become, nor would the rest of the body of Christ.

Does this view diminish the sufficiency of Scripture for teaching and rebuke? Hardly. For these same Scriptures which are sufficient teach these very things. These very Scriptures teach that these gifts of the Holy Spirit have been given to compliment the ministry of the Word of God. Signs and wonders are needed just as much today, if not more so, than they were 2,000 years ago. We are in just as much need, if not more so, for the gifts of the Spirit to be in operation today. No, not so that we might chase signs and wonders as often is done in charismatica, but rather, so that you and I might speak a living word from heaven into the life of another person, and declare to them the mind of Christ at that moment.

The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy. One cannot divide the testimony of Jesus from the prophetic Spirit which makes an utterance of that testimony possible. If Jesus still has a testimony to offer, then He cannot do that today apart from the prophetic Spirit of God. This age, from cover to cover, is to be a prophetic age, so that the eternal purposes of God might be accomplished through the Church, and the testimony He wishes to share concerning His Son might be shared with all nations.


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Jimmy H

 2010/1/30 20:28Profile





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