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hoohoou
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Joined: 2009/12/11
Posts: 212
Texas

 Gifts of the Holy Spirit by J. Vernon McGee

I listened today to this [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=405&min=400&orderby=titleA&show=20]Sermon[/url] by J. Vernon McGee. I've listened to him on the radio many times and enjoyed his teaching so I wasn't prepared for this. Someone correct my if I'm wrong, but he doesn't believe in miracles today? I haven't listened to part 2 and will tomorrow, but he seemed pretty clear that apostleship, healings and miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit ended with the apostles. This isn't a new doctrine to me, but I always thought those who espoused this view were outside of mainstream thought. Mr. McGee is highly respected. I mean Jesus even said that the saving of one's soul was a greater miracle than healing. We know people get saved. Is this line of thinking not so "out there" as I thought it was? I have to admit I'm not sure if I'll listen to any more of his sermons. I'm not sure I would trust anything he had to say. That whole line of thinking just seems false. Can anyone shed some light on this?


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Matt Smith

 2010/1/27 23:09Profile
hoohoou
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Joined: 2009/12/11
Posts: 212
Texas

 Re: Gifts of the Holy Spirit by J. Vernon McGee

Ok, I just read Paul West's post on confronting ministers. I just want everyone to know that I'm not attacking his ministry, just seeking clarification on his views. I'm also seeking clarification on the doctrine that miracles have ceased. What's the basis of that? I reread my post and don't think it appears condemning, but I just wanted to be sure everyone understands that is not what I'm doing.


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Matt Smith

 2010/1/28 7:02Profile
Jeremy221
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Joined: 2009/11/7
Posts: 1471


 Re: A Teacher's Strength

Hi,

I understand what you are saying and recently I have been led to some sermons that did not fit a fuller understanding of life under the New Covenant. However, like you, I have been led to other teaching by the same person that was deep and profound. In the thread about Samson, the question is raised as to why he is included in the Hall of Faith heros. I would answer that it is the same reason. By faith Samson was able to kill the lion, by faith he slew the men in response to pledge he made, by faith he was able to catch foxes that he used to destroy the fields of the Phillistines, by faith he had the strength to tear the gate and it's posts fr the city and carry them miles away, by faith he slew a thousand men with the jaw bone of an ass and by faith he was able to push down the pillars of the temple that killed the nobles and more people than he had done his entire life. In Hebrews we are warned of wicked unbelief that prevented the Jews from entering the Promise Land. However, before they came to that crossroad, they did have faith enough to follow Moses out into the desert and receive the Law and even made an outh to follow all of it and for the Lord to be their only god. What we see in those who do not know or are unable to teach all of the Gospel are people who may be stuck in sin or fear thar prevents them from holding to and living the full Gospel and thus being unwilling or unable to honestly share it. I know I personally am aware of Scripture that is not yet yeilded to because of sin or unbelief in my life and yet the Lord has used me encourage and build up others in ways that I could be a living example.

So when you come to a teacher that has blessed you before but now you have discovered falls short of the fuller life, do not dismiss them offhand because God may use them in the future to bless you and build you up for His own glory.

Peace

 2010/1/28 12:02Profile
Giggles
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Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re: Gifts of the Holy Spirit by J. Vernon McGee

hoohoou check out John Macarthur if you want to learn more about the position that promotes cessation of the gifts and etc. He is a firm proponent of that doctrine and can probably articulate that position most thoroughly.

Here's his [url=http://www.gty.org/blog]blog[/url] and [url=http://books.google.com/books?id=TnVj53uZVjkC&printsec=frontcover&dq=john+macarthur&lr=&cd=12#v=onepage&q=&f=false]book.[/url]

He deals with these thing rather frequently and does write with a polemic style. If you're heart is sensitive be advised, he is adamant about cessationism and is not afraid to say it and why.


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Paul

 2010/1/28 13:03Profile
chapel
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Joined: 2009/4/24
Posts: 280


 Re:

Giggles,

Why would you advise someone to an off site false teaching that is clearly in opposition to the teachings of the New Covenant?


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Lee Chapel

 2010/1/29 22:30Profile
Giggles
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Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

chapel,

in response to the OP:

Quote:
That whole line of thinking just seems false. Can anyone shed some light on this?



I suppose I could try to recap a man like Macarthur and his position, but he's much better suited. As for his views, while I don't agree, SI does host some of his material here, so posting a link to the man's site is within reason.

From the SI FAQ:

Quote:
Q. Some speakers on sermonindex vary in their doctrinal stance?
Answer. Because of the nature of this website and the amount of material available here, the views are those of the original speaker or author. Because of the diversity of viewpoints on some issues, there probably isnt a single individual anywhere who would subscribe to all of the views on all of the topics presented here, and we dont either. However, the material is still valuable and worth study. Someone has compared listening to an abundance of preachers to catchng and eating fish. If one eats a lot of fish, one must pick out a bone now and then, but the fish is still good.



Hope that shows my heart. Just trying to help someone find what they are looking for.


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Paul

 2010/1/30 11:03Profile
chapel
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Joined: 2009/4/24
Posts: 280


 Re:

Gigles,

Please forgive my haste in questioning your response to
hoohoou. I just now saw this in their post.

Quote:
I'm also seeking clarification on the doctrine that miracles have ceased. What's the basis of that?



Again, please forgive my mistake.

lee


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Lee Chapel

 2010/1/30 11:40Profile
Anastasis
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Joined: 2009/7/1
Posts: 75


 Re: Gifts of the Holy Spirit by J. Vernon McGee


Quote:
I listened today to this Sermon by J. Vernon McGee. I've listened to him on the radio many times and enjoyed his teaching so I wasn't prepared for this. Someone correct my if I'm wrong, but he doesn't believe in miracles today? I haven't listened to part 2 and will tomorrow, but he seemed pretty clear that apostleship, healings and miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit ended with the apostles. This isn't a new doctrine to me, but I always thought those who espoused this view were outside of mainstream thought. Mr. McGee is highly respected. I mean Jesus even said that the saving of one's soul was a greater miracle than healing. We know people get saved. Is this line of thinking not so "out there" as I thought it was? I have to admit I'm not sure if I'll listen to any more of his sermons. I'm not sure I would trust anything he had to say. That whole line of thinking just seems false. Can anyone shed some light on this?



I'm not sure I would take your disagreement to that point. There's actually quite a few very good teachers both past and present who hold the same position, though if you grew up Pentecostal/Charismatic like I did then you've probably not been exposed to much of it. As far as reasoning, the main appeal is that the extraordinary gifts (as opposed to the more ordinary such as the teaching and serving) were meant for a specific time and place. The apostolic times were the most important cross-section in history, and the Bible describes the miracles done as being so great that people were left in fear of God. And this served to propel the Gospel forward and bring evidence of this revelation of God through Christ. It's not necessarily heretical, and may be in part a sound way of perceiving it. The truth is too, we don't see miracles today like what happened back then. We could either infer that God has set them aside for a time, or we're doing something very wrong.

I would qualify this issue with cessationism (and this is a general statement not specifically pointed at anyone's comments), I wouldn't take this stance on the miraculous gifts as non-belief in the work of the Spirit. There are some who although they don't believe the extraordinary gifts are still in use, still leave the power of their preaching at the mercy of the Holy Spirit. Spurgeon never held an altar call for example, because He believed that the Spirit would convict for salvation (and He did), and he's had words given to him by God. Jonathan Edwards believed that the extraordinary gifts had ceased, appealing to their purpose having been complete (at least for the time), but He wouldn't deny the work of the Spirit in the Great Awakening or the incredible response to his dryly-read sermon, "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." These men did see manifestations of the Spirit.

I think too that they would have an openness to seeing miracles again. Edwards noted in one of his works (link below) that the use of miracles even in Old Testament history was quite scattered, and so it's no surprise if the case is the same today. But still I get the hint from him that he would be open to seeing them again, but the occasion just hasn't risen yet.

I myself, I'm not sure where I stand.

I'd keep listening to Mr. McGee. And in part, he may actually be right. It may not be the whole story, but he may be seeing something that others don't. Let's not exceed what is written, but let's neither quench the Spirit.

 2010/1/30 11:52Profile
hoohoou
Member



Joined: 2009/12/11
Posts: 212
Texas

 Re:

Giggles, I understood what you were trying to do. Even if you didn't agree with MacArthur, I understood that you were simply passing on information.

Quote:
If one eats a lot of fish, one must pick out a bone now and then, but the fish is still good.



I also understand what is trying to be said by the above quote, but I will have a hard time trusting the discernment and wisdom of the 2 mentioned on this thread. I will look past most disagreements in theology and doctrine if both sides can point to verses that support their idea, for example, tongues and initial evidence. All sides are supported by scriptural ideas but there seems to be a lack of specific verses saying very specific things in support of either side.

On the other hand cessationists seem to have to draw from multiple scriptures to form one idea. The other side can simply point to one verse, or more, such as James 5:14-15. Cessationists seem to use smoke and mirrors to tell you that what you're reading is not really what you're reading. It would seem that without them your average lay person would have no hope of deciphering scripture. John 14:26 says that the Holy Spirit will teach us all things. There is also a verse, which I can't find, that says that the Word is written plainly. It's right there for us. The Holy Spirit will guide us if we are studying in submission to His authority.

I certainly don't doubt their sincerity or salvation, I just think this is a little different than two sides going to a handful of verses to form an idea and then coming to a different conclusion. The fact that I can go to one verse to win the argument makes me leery of almost anything they have to say. That and the fact of experience.


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Matt Smith

 2010/1/30 12:18Profile
Giggles
Member



Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

Thanks for understanding hoohoou.

I think a big verse cited for gift cessation is found in 1 Cor. 13:

1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

I'm not sure what the trigger point is, but the imperfect prophecy (symbolizing all gifts) has passed away.

I believe post-millennials also say the gifts were for the 'last days' via Acts 2. According to this position, the last days ended with the destruction of Jerusalem and we are now in the 'new times.'


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Paul

 2010/1/30 12:24Profile





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