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 Re:

Okay now, Waltern said that Elijah was taken somewhere other than heaven because no man hath ascended into heaven accept He that came down from heaven. I can accept that. Paul hints that there are 3 heavens, so we can suppose that Elijah was taken to the first or second, only God knows.

But, they were taken someplace where they were in glory.

Luke 9:30-31 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias who appeared in glory.

 2009/12/27 21:40









 Re:



To DeepThinker:

Yes, John the Baptist went forward in the Spirit & Power of Elijah, but he was NOT Elijah. Elijah actually had many powers that John the Baptist did not have!

When Elijah returns, in the Book of Revelation, he returns as a full grown man, the same as Enoch does, the same men that were taken by God will be returned by God, to do a mighty work during the first 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation..

John the Baptist was not Elijah. Do we agree on that, Deepthinker ?


Sincerely,

Walter

Deepthinker posted:

Quote:
[b]Okay, lets reason together.

The Angel Gabriel announced to Zecharias that his son's name would be called John in Luke 1:13. He goes on to say in verse 15 that he will be great in the sight of the Lord and “shall drink no wine or strong drink and will be filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb.” Verse 17 says of John, “he will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah,” which is a ministry of reconciliation, would have the “hearts of the fathers turned to the children and children turning to their fathers.”

Verse 17 is pretty clear to me.

[/b]

 2009/12/27 22:10









 Re: The Transfiguration



DeepThinker posted:

Quote:
[b]Okay now, Waltern said that Elijah was taken somewhere other than heaven because no man hath ascended into heaven accept He that came down from heaven. I can accept that. Paul hints that there are 3 heavens, so we can suppose that Elijah was taken to the first or second, only God knows.

But, they were taken someplace where they were in glory.

Luke 9:30-31 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias who appeared in glory.

[/b]



Walter responds:

[color=990000][b]The Bible tells us that when the Lord was transfigured, that there appeared with Him in the mount, Moses and Elijah.Most scholars feel that they were there because it is a representation of the Kingdom (the Millennium, the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ upon the earth)[u]giving them a preview of His coming Kingdom. And in the coming Kingdom there will not only be Peter, James and John, who I believe, are representatives, as it were, of the New Covenant, the Church-- Because they were redeemed, certainly they were true Israelites, but after the cross and resurrection, they became part of the church of Jesus Christ.[/u] So they represent the church.[u] Moses and Elijah represent the Old Testament saints. And it gives to us the picture that in the Kingdom, there will be the combination of the church—the redeemed church—and the redeemed out of the Old Covenant. And of course, in many ways, the two leading individuals in the Old Covenant, were Moses and Elijah, one representing the Law and the other what? The prophets. So I think that’s probably the best way to look at that. But they are representative of the Old Testament saints who will appear in glory in the coming kingdom which Christ was portraying there, or previewing, and that they represent the Law and the Prophets.[/color][/u][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter

 2009/12/27 22:19
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:
When Elijah returns, in the Book of Revelation, he returns as a full grown man



Someone will have to explain to me how Elijah gets turned into a candlestick.

"These (the two witnesses) are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth" (Rev. 11.4).

And a candlestick is a church (Rev. 1.20). So the two witnesses are not just two individuals; they are a church, a corporate people moving in the spirit and power of Elijah (of Moses and Elijah, to be exact).


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/12/27 23:14Profile









 Re: End-Time View

Quote:
So the two witnesses are not just two individuals; they are a church, a corporate people moving in the spirit and power of Elijah

AD,

Thanks for bringing a bit of sense to this!


The amount of futurism and individuality which has enterered the interpretation of prophecy in recent generations, surprises me every time. The concept of 'a corporate people' (a priesthood) was, historically, the Christian understanding of 'antiChrist'.


On the matter of the 'two witnesses', I feel, also, that it must refer to 'Christian' bodies, because Jesus said [i][b]'Ye[/i][/b] shall be my witnesses' - Acts 1:8.

No doubt Enoch and Elijah 'saw' Christ from afar, but I can see no reason to bring them back to testify to the up-coming generation. As Jesus said: 'If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Luke 16, last verse.)

God provided meticulously for Christ's coming, that there should be a context for Him, which had been written into scripture. Not only does this world have no scripture (as the Jews did), but what could be the context of Enoch's 'coming again', or Elijah's, which would lead to millions becoming Christians?

There is only so much one individual can do. That's why God called the church 'the body of Christ', and gave gifts of men, and enabling, to its members, to obey His callings.

At least the world knows about us, and while they may not believe, at least they have context for our unchanging message.

 2009/12/28 4:45
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, my end time view is there will millions of people and all the angels and every beast from above and below the earth and from the sea singing worthy is the Lamb.jimp

 2009/12/28 5:25Profile









 Re:


Obviously the two witnesses play a prime role in the last day scenario, and I personally think they
ARE individuals. The reason is, that the Word is too graphic about their power, and especially their deaths...when their bodies are resurrected in front of all. "COME UP HERE!"; says the Lord....as many watched.


I really like what Zac Poonen has points out about prophesy, and particularly the book of Revelation. The prophecy was given to show us what will surely come to pass, and to OBEY, not to just merely speculate upon the possibilities. This is to secure our faith, and when it happens, we will understand.

 2009/12/28 9:48









 Re: End-Time View

Quote:
I personally think they ARE individuals.

It would be interesting to know if there is a Greek plural for the plural 'two' (bodies), which would distinguish this for us from bodies itself being a reference to (in this case 2) groups of people, so that 'bodies' (the dead ones) could then be clarified as multiple rather than only two individuals.

On the face of modern English usage, and the advance of Futurism as a doctrinal basis for interpreting scripture (which is only about 200 years old), it is, imho, too easy to think of these as two individuals. However, if scripture never refered to a group of people by a singular, there would be more to support it to interpet the olive trees in Revelation. But 'Israel, my son' refers to the whole body of people, and so there is a poignant precedent for considering the possibility that the two olive trees are churches, or believing families. Then, the wonderment at their resurrection when it happens, and their ascension, would indeed be great.
Quote:
not to just merely speculate upon the possibilities

I hear you. It frustrates me immensely, though, to hear so many interpretations, not one of which strikes me as truly 'spiritual'. I feel there is far more depth both to Daniel's prophecy, and Christ's Revelation to John, than I have ever heard expounded. I feel this is, in part, due to the lack of connection to historical Christianity which our generation is suffering, due to the tireless ork of the enemy this last two hundred years, to bring into question the most fundamental truths of the Faith.

 2009/12/28 10:38









 Re:



To Alive-to-God

Has it ever occured to you to use Scripture to support your endless words? Without Scripute to support your "views" they mean absolutely nothing.


Sincerely,

Walter

Alive to God posted:

Quote:
It would be interesting to know if there is a Greek plural for the plural 'two' (bodies), which would distinguish this for us from bodies itself being a reference to (in this case 2) groups of people, so that 'bodies' (the dead ones) could then be clarified as multiple rather than only two individuals.

On the face of modern English usage, and the advance of Futurism as a doctrinal basis for interpreting scripture (which is only about 200 years old), it is, imho, too easy to think of these as two individuals. However, if scripture never refered to a group of people by a singular, there would be more to support it to interpet the olive trees in Revelation. But 'Israel, my son' refers to the whole body of people, and so there is a poignant precedent for considering the possibility that the two olive trees are churches, or believing families. Then, the wonderment at their resurrection when it happens, and their ascension, would indeed be great.



 2009/12/28 11:05









 Re: Only one gathering together...[ parousia]




"But 'Israel, my son' refers to the whole body of people, and so there is a poignant precedent for considering the possibility that the two olive trees are churches, or believing families. Then, the wonderment at their resurrection when it happens, and their ascension, would indeed be great."..alive to God


Indeed it would be great, but really, it would take quite a stretch of eschatological faith to assume that there would be two raptures...[parousias]; Churches ascending before the return of the LORD?

The two witnesses are resurrected before the Lord returns.

 2009/12/28 11:14





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