| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: End-Time View | |
Hello AD, Thanks for the further exposition of how you understand the scripture. I hear what you're saying about the future tense, and will have to study around that now.
Hello waltern,
It has fascinated me since I first heard the idea that Elijah didn't 'die' when he was taken up to heaven, that anyone can believe this, especially as he appeared in a transfigured body on the Mount with Moses and Christ.
Quote:
The real Elijah will return during the Tribulation, and will be a witness to the entire world, and God will protect him from being harmed. When it is time, God will allow him to be killed, [b]and he will resurrect from the dead on the third day, and ascend into heaven for all the world to see[/b].
Where in scripture do you find the assertion I've emboldened, please?
Doesn't his, (and Enoch's) catching up into heaven, simply prefigure that of the one we await for ourselves, (as you mention), in which we do not expect to have to be killed (for instance, by a sword, be buried, rise again etc) before we can ascend to join the Lord in the air at His coming?
Why would God keep Enoch and Elijah out of His presence for thousands of years, when the whole reason He took them that way was because they walked with Him in deep fellowship?
|
|  2009/12/27 17:02 | |
| | Re: Revelation 11:3-12 | |
Hello Alive-To-God:
you asked:
Quote:
[b]
and he will resurrect from the dead on the third day, and ascend into heaven for all the world to see.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where in scripture do you find the assertion I've emboldened, please?
[/b]
It can be found in the verses that I previously posted (Revelation 11:3-12):
3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.[color=990000][b] 8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.[/color][/b] 9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.[color=990000][b] 11. And after three days and an half[u] the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.[/u][/color][/b]
As far as the rapture that occurs before the Tribulation, it is not clear if those that are alive will be killed by God, so that we can receive our new glorified bodies of flesh and bone, or some how be vaporized. God could merely "remove' our souls from our corrupt physical bodies and implant them in our new glorified bodies. What we do know is that [color=990000][b] flesh and blood cannot inherit eternal life[/color][/b]. Our flesh is from Adam.[color=990000][b] God will also completely destroy the entire earth in order to create a new heaven and a new earth. The earth that we have, as well as the heaven (our atmosphere) has been corrupted by Satan as well, and must be replaced by God with a new, uncorrupted heaven & earth, where we can worhsip Him and fellowship with Him forever. [/color][/b]
In regards to Enoch & Elijah, this might help:
Question: "Why did God take Enoch and Elijah to Heaven without them dying?"
Answer: According to the Bible, Enoch and Elijah are the only two people God took to heaven without them dying. Genesis 5:24 tells us, "Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away." Second Kings 2:11 tells us, "...suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind." Enoch is described as a man who "walked with God for 300 years" (Genesis 5:23). Elijah was perhaps the most powerful of God's prophets in the Old Testament. There are also prophecies of Elijah's return (Malachi 4:5-6).
[color=990000][b]Why did God take Enoch and Elijah? The Bible does not specifically give us the answer. Some speculate that they were taken in preparation for a role in the end times, possibly as the two witnesses in Revelation chapter 11:3-12. This is possible, but not explicitly taught in the Bible. It may be that God desired to save Enoch and Elijah from experiencing death due to their great faithfulness in serving and obeying Him. Whatever the case, God has His purpose, and while we dont always understand Gods plans and purposes, we know that His way is perfect (Psalm 18:30).[/color][/b]
God bless,
Walter |
| | 2009/12/27 17:18 | | murrcolr
Member
Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1839
Scotland, UK
| | Re: | | Deeper Thinker
Know looking at Elijah and why "a type" of this prophet will arise in this generation. The King on the throne at the time was Ahab and is "a type" of Anti Christ with Jezebel being "a type" of the Harlot. Ahab was the 8th king on the throne. The Anti Christ is also called an 8th King on the throne Rev 17:11.
John the Baptist never faced the beast the 8th King, and just as Jesus is coming back again so will he send his messenger to prepare a people for his return who will face the 8th King who is the beast.
---------------------------------------------
Quote:
Waltern said
John the Baptist was a type of Elijah. Reincarnation has no place in God's scheme of things. The real Elijah will return during the Tribulation, and will be a witness to the entire world, and God will protect him from being harmed. When it is time, God will allow him to be killed, and he will resurrect from the dead on the third day, and ascend into heaven for all the world to see.
Waltern I had to go back and read my post again to see if in any way that I mentioned reincarnation, which I can't seem to find in my post. The only thing I could see was "a form" this does not mean Elijah turned up looking like John the Baptist it is just a different way of saying "a type".
Walter Elijah the man who left in the Chariot will not be back, it will be a man "a type" like Elijah. What you will have to look out for is his name because his name will mean what God is going to do.
Elijah means The Lord is God, Elijah in his day had to confront Baal worship, Baal means Lord. So God's message through the prophet was The Lord is God not Baal.
John the Baptist, John means Grace, God through this man was letting everyone know that the age of Grace was upon them.
I could go on and on here about men of God and there names but havent got the time.
So Gods chosen vessel that will arise will be have a name that will carry a message of what God will do in this generation.
_________________
Colin Murray
|
| | 2009/12/27 17:48 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
Elijah never died. We know that flesh and blood cannot inherit eternal life. Elijah must die
He did die.
Matthew ll:10-14 says that John was Elijah. And then Jesus says this classic saying, "He that hath ears to hear let him hear". He also says, "If you can receive it".
I would have to come to the conclusion that there are brethren that are not hearing it and can't receive it.
I am rather stupid on some issues regarding the word of God, but this is the easiest to hear and receive.
|
| | 2009/12/27 20:19 | |
| | Re: | |
To DeepThinker:
Lets reason together.
Elijah was taken by God, in a whirlwind. He never saw death.
John the Baptist was a baby in the womb of Elizabeth, and born as a baby.
God does not allow reincarnation. Satan teaches reincarnation to the lost.
John the Baptist cannot be Elijah.
John the Baptist is a type of Elijah only.
Hope that makes sense to you.
God bless,
Walter
|
| | 2009/12/27 20:35 | |
| | Re: End-Time View | |
Hi Walter,
Only by assuming the two witnesses are Elijah and Enoch can you attribute to their 'lives' the interpretation you give.
And, a place for them [i]not[/i] in God's presence (as no man has seen God save the Son) has had to be invented, to accommodate the belief that they could be taken to heaven in a sinful state, and [i]not[/i] be at rest with others who have died. It would seem something so important to understand, as where the 'two olive trees' come from, could have received a little more attention within the revelation of the whole of scripture.
Also, for them to be 'olive' trees, wouldn't they have to be properly Jewish, both of them?
|
| | 2009/12/27 20:48 | |
| | Re: | |
mercloor posted:
Quote:
[b]
Walter Elijah the man who left in the Chariot will not be back, it will be a man "a type" like Elijah. What you will have to look out for is his name because his name will mean what God is going to do.
Elijah means The Lord is God, Elijah in his day had to confront Baal worship, Baal means Lord. So God's message through the prophet was The Lord is God not Baal.
John the Baptist, John means Grace, God through this man was letting everyone know that the age of Grace was upon them.
I could go on and on here about men of God and there names but havent got the time.
So Gods chosen vessel that will arise will be have a name that will carry a message of what God will do in this generation.
[/b]
Dear murcloor:
[b]Does Scripture have anything to do with your conclusion about Elijah?[/b]
This is an analysis, that uses Scripture to come to a different conclusion than what you have posted:
[b]The Two Witnesses During the Tribulation[/b]
Chapter 11 in the book of Revelation describes two witnesses during the Great Tribulation who will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth. They have the power to breathe fire, shut up the sky so that it won't rain, turn waters into blood, and strike the earth with every kind of plague. (Rev. 11:6) Afterwards, they will be killed, left to rot in the streets for three days, and then be resurrected to the astonishment of the world. These two unnamed witnesses will then be called to heaven in a cloud, with their enemies staring after them. Who are these unusual individuals with such delineated roles?
[b]The Prophet Elijah Will Return Before Jesus[/b]
The great prophet Elijah lived during the reign of several evil kings in the Old Testament. At the end of his time on earth, a fiery chariot with horses of fire suddenly appeared and took him up to heaven in a whirlwind (II Kings 2:11), so he never died a death like other men. Then 500 years later but still 400 years before Christ, the prophet Malachi said God would "send the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the Lord (Mal. 4:5-6,)
[b]At that time, even theologians didn't understand the near and the far views of Messianic prophecy, and the two separate times He would come. Jesus' disciples didn't understand, either. They asked Him to explain the prophecy about Elijah after marveling at the transfiguration (Matt. 17: 1-3).
"Jesus replied, 'To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they have done to him everything they wished....' Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist (Mt. 17:11-12)." Apparently John the Baptist was the prototype or "type" of Elijah, and they are left to mull this over. During the conversation, Jesus doesn't mention He will come twice, leaving the mystery intact.[/b]
[b]Elijah had Similar Powers to the Two Witnesses of Revelation Chapter 11[/b]
Just like the two witnesses in Revelation, Elijah had the power to shut up the sky so that it would not rain. In I Kings 17:1, Elijah told King Ahab, "There will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word." Three years later, God told Elijah to present himself to Ahab "to send rain on the land (I Kings 18:1)."
It is imperatice to support our opinions with Scripture. Afterall, this is Sermonindex, a Christian Website.
God bless,
Walter
|
| | 2009/12/27 20:52 | |
| | Re: | |
To Alive-to-God
Where is Enoch and Elijah? Did God whisk them to heaven or some other place?
Many Bible readers have been mystified by the "disappearance" of these personages. Some believe they are evidence that those who die righteously go to heaven. Of course this is a big misconception, so what did happen to Enoch and Elijah?
Let's begin with Enoch. There are only two Scriptural passages that mention him by name. The first one is found in the book of Genesis, chapter 5 and verse 24. Let's see how the various Bible translations render this verse (Genesis 5:24):
"23. And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24. And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."
Now lets take a look at the second scripture that mentions Enoch by name:
Hebrews 11:5
" 5. By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
The most significant aspect of these two Scriptures is the fact that neither of them say Enoch went to heaven.
The word rendered translated in the Greek, μετατίθημι, is Strong's Concordance #3346. It means to transfer, transport, exchange, change sides, carry over, change or remove.
We read in John 3:13 :
"And no man has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of man who is in heaven. "
Also Acts 2:34 :
"For David did not ascend into the heavens but he said himself: 'The Lord said to My Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, till I make your enemies Your footstool.' "
Both Enoch and David were long dead when Jesus and Peter made those statements. This is positive proof that neither Enoch nor David were taken to heaven, at least the "heaven" where God resides.
What about Elijah? Let's look at 2 Kings 2:1, 11 :
"And it came to pass, when the Lord was about to take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven " (2Kings 2:1, 11)
[b]What few people realize is that the Bible discusses three types or kinds of heaven. Briefly, the first heaven is the atmosphere or sky that surrounds the earth, the second heaven is the physical universe that has stars, planets and so on, and the third type of heaven is where God's throne resides. [/b]
Which heaven then is 2 Kings 2 verses 1 and 11, mentioned above, referring to?
The word translated heaven in 2Kings 1, 11 comes from the Hebrew word shamahym (שׁמה שׁמים, Strong's Concordance #8064). It is the plural form of the Hebrew word shameh which means to be lofty, the sky, the visible arch in which the clouds move. Its certainly not the heaven where God's throne is.
Neither man went to heaven, to be in the presence of God. They went to wherever God sent them, to stay alive, until they are needed in the end times.
God bless,
Walter
|
| | 2009/12/27 21:04 | | ADisciple
Member
Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada
| | Re: | | Quote:
looking at Elijah and why "a type" of this prophet will arise in this generation.
Another great post, Murrcolr.
_________________
Allan Halton
|
| | 2009/12/27 21:22 | Profile |
| | Re: | |
Okay, lets reason together.
The Angel Gabriel announced to Zecharias that his son's name would be called John in Luke 1:13. He goes on to say in verse 15 that he will be great in the sight of the Lord and shall drink no wine or strong drink and will be filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb. Verse 17 says of John, he will also go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, which is a ministry of reconciliation, would have the hearts of the fathers turned to the children and children turning to their fathers.
Verse 17 is pretty clear to me.
|
| | 2009/12/27 21:31 | |
|
