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Giggles
Member



Joined: 2009/12/12
Posts: 592


 Re:

Quote:
ADisciple said:
What could be more of a 'great and dreadful day of the LORD' than when He was crucified?



I have always understood those 'great and terrible days' of the OT to have a tri-fold fulfillment: the immediate judgment on the people of Israel, the first coming, and then the second coming when Christ comes to judge (and whatever else happens, millennial-wise that is ;).

These verses always make me tremble:

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,because our testimony among you was believed. (2 Thess. 1:6-10)

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had[a] a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean,followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

(Rev. 19:11-17)


_________________
Paul

 2009/12/27 9:03Profile









 Re:

Quote:
But "Elijah" is yet to come prior to His second appearing, prior to "the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD" (Mal.4.5).

Let me quote the bible's interpretation of this prophetic utterance given by Malachi.

Please READ, don't SKIM over it as if these verses mean nothing. Thank you.

Matthew 3:2-4 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
[2] And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
[3] For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
[4] And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.


2kings 1:7-8
[7] And he said unto them, What manner of man was he which came up to meet you, and told you these words?
[8] And they answered him, He was an hairy man, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite.


Matthew 11:7-15
[7] And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
[8] But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
[9] But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.
[10] For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
[11] Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
[12] And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
[13] For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
[14] And if ye will receive it, THIS IS ELIJAH, which was for to come.
[15] He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 2009/12/27 9:22
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Alive-to-god wrote:

Quote:
What could be more of a 'great and dreadful day of the LORD' than when He was crucified?



The day in which the judgment of the Cross is fully executed upon the whole world is the great and fearful day of the Lord. That day hasn't come yet... although I believe (in the great judgments of recent years) we are seeing the first rays of its dawning.


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/12/27 12:06Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:
But "Elijah" is yet to come prior to His second appearing, prior to "the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD" (Mal.4.5).



This is from my earlier post.

Jesus said this on the way down the Mount of Transfiguration with His disciples. They knew they had just seen the Christ, but they couldn't line that up with their doctrine. The scribes had always taught them (and rightly) that Elijah would come first.

Jesus said, "Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things" (Mt. 17.11).

He's using the future tense here.

This is the transliteration from the Greek. "Elias indeed comes first, and shall restore all things."

"SHALL restore..." Future tense. Jesus indicates very clearly that Elijah's coming was yet future.

And at the same time He went on to say that "Elias is come already, and they knew him not..." (Mt. 17.12).

And so prior to His first appearing, "Elijah" went before Him.

And prior to His second appearing, and the great and terrible day of the Lord, "Elijah" again is sent to do a preparing work. I believe this is what is being prophesied in Rev. 11.3-6 (the "two" witnesses: Moses and Elijah... which Malachi also prophesied of in Mal. 4.4-6).

And I think "two" here in Rev. 11.3 is a "sign" number (as I said in the 1000 years thread, that numbers also are symbolic in Scripture: "In the mouth of two witnesses...") I believe these "two witnesses" is speaking of many Christians in harmony together shining forth a pure light of testimony, many Christians and ministries together ministering a pure and convicting light.

In fact John calls these two witnesses "the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks (a reference to Zechariah's prophecy, Zech. 4.2). A candlestick is a type, a symbol, of a church (Rev. 1.20). And a church is many members in harmony together under one Head.

...What days we are in! There is more ahead of us, FAR MORE, than there is behind us!


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/12/27 12:37Profile









 Re: HAS THIS HAPPENED?....IT WILL.



Alive-to-god wrote: Quote:


"What could be more of a 'great and dreadful day of the LORD' than when He was crucified?"

ADISCIPLE wrote:

"The day in which the judgment of the Cross is fully executed upon the whole world is the great and fearful day of the Lord. That day hasn't come yet... although I believe (in the great judgments of recent years) we are seeing the first rays of its dawning."

The judgments on the earth on that DAY...
THE DAY OF THE LORD!


Isaiah 24 (New American Standard Bible)

Isaiah 24
Judgment on the Earth
1. Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2. And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.

3. The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled, for the LORD has spoken this word.

4. The earth mourns and withers, the world fades and withers, the exalted of the people of the earth fade away.

5. The earth is also polluted by its inhabitants, for they transgressed laws, violated statutes, broke the everlasting covenant.

6. Therefore, a curse devours the earth, and those who live in it are held guilty Therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left.
7. The new wine mourns,
The vine decays,
All the merry-hearted sigh.
8. The gaiety of tambourines ceases,
The noise of revelers stops,
The gaiety of the harp ceases.
9. They do not drink wine with song;
Strong drink is bitter to those who drink it.
10. The city of chaos is broken down;
Every house is shut up so that none may enter.
11There is an outcry in the streets concerning the wine;
All joy turns to gloom.
The gaiety of the earth is banished.
12. Desolation is left in the city
And the gate is battered to ruins.
13. For thus it will be in the midst of the earth among the peoples,
As the shaking of an olive tree,
As the gleanings when the grape harvest is over.
14. They raise their voices, they shout for joy;
They cry out from the west concerning the majesty of the LORD.
15. Therefore glorify the LORD in the east,
The name of the LORD, the God of Israel,
In the coastlands of the sea.
16. From the ends of the earth we hear songs, "Glory to the Righteous One,"
But I say, "Woe to me! Woe to me! Alas for me!
The treacherous deal treacherously,
And the treacherous deal very treacherously."
17. Terror and pit and snare
Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18. Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit,
And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare;
For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19. The earth is broken asunder,
The earth is split through,
The earth is shaken violently.
20. The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard
And it totters like a shack,
For its transgression is heavy upon it,
And it will fall, never to rise again.
21. So it will happen in that day,
That the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high,
And the kings of the earth on earth.
22. They will be gathered together
Like prisoners in the dungeon,
And will be confined in prison;
And after many days they will be punished.
23. Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed,
For the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem,
And His glory will be before His elders.

 2009/12/27 12:47
murrcolr
Member



Joined: 2007/4/25
Posts: 1529
Scotland, UK

 Re:

Many believe, and rightly believe, that Elijah already came in the form of John the Baptist. But just as Jesus is coming a second time, so Elijha is coming yet a second time as a preceding witness in order to prepare the way for Him. Elijah has not yet “restored all matters” as the Prophet Malachi (Chapters 3-4) indicates he would just as Jesus confirms below. Read the following passage, but be careful not to gloss over verse 11.

Matthew 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?

Matthew 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

Matthew 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Matthew 17:13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist

Jesus did not deny the future event, but indicated Elijah was already in their midst and prepared the way for His coming. Also note with the following passage that the Disciples of Jesus believed Elijah of Malachi 4:5 had yet come to “restore all matters”. It was yet a future event, which is quite apparent even now that is: it is still a future event.


Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive [b]until the times of restitution of all things[/b], which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

This is an end time event, history and prophecy are frequently repeated or reoccur in dual events. In fact, sometimes History is Prophecy for example: the First Exodus is a historical event that prophesied the another Exodus of Jeremiah 16 and 23.


_________________
Colin Murray

 2009/12/27 13:13Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Very good word, Murrcolr.


_________________
Allan Halton

 2009/12/27 13:46Profile









 Re:

Matthew 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. Matthew 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed.

Verse 11 is not a future restoration as you have suggested, because when we read verse 12 it says, "But I say unto you, That Elijah has come already.....".

Quote:
Jesus did not deny the future event, but indicated Elijah was already in their midst and prepared the way for His coming. Also note with the following passage that the Disciples of Jesus believed Elijah of Malachi 4:5 had yet come to “restore all matters”. It was yet a future event, which is quite apparent even now that is: it is still a future event.

Quite Apparent? It's not clear at all. Jesus and the disciples were having a conversation of what the prophets had said about John. Jesus didn't prophecy another event in our future, He was telling us that Elijah had come and rulers did to Him what they were going to do with Jesus.
Quote:
Matthew 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

The restoration is the message of repentance. God had left Israel to themselves for a space of over 400 years between Malachi the last prophet until John the Baptist arrived because of their constant rejection of Him and being stiffnecked. There was no prophet, no urim or thummin, no light, until John came. And then a greater light then John came upon the scene, Jesus Christ to which Elijah who represented the prophets diminished. John truly prepared the way of the LORD. We know very little of John's ministry. We see him come in just a few verses and then he's gone. But he spent some time in the wilderness and created a media sensation to the locals even as far as Jerusalem that they had to send a delegation to find out if he was the Christ or not. There were even soldiers there which denote that this was not an overnight ministry that just cropped up. They were probably sent because of the huge crowds that were drawing people from far and wide and with so many false prophets arising and uprisings in the land that it was necessary to make sure that this wasn't a political movement. Even King Herod was impressed with John, so this man was more than what we think he was.

Quote:
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

The times of refreshing is the receiving the Holy Ghost as they did at Pentecost.
Quote:
Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Jesus Christ is the Holy Spirit.

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but YOU KNOW HIM; for he (speaking of Himself) dwelleth with you, and shall be IN you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:28 I proceedeth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Quote:
Acts 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: OLD THINGS ARE PASSED AWAY; behold, all things are become new.

Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Acts 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

Anyone can take verse 16 and take this out of context and shoot it forth into our future (I am sure someone has) but it belongs right here, just like Elijah in John belongs in the past fulfillment.

Quote:
Acts 3:22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, LIKE UNTO ME; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

This is talking about Jesus Christ. Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I SPEAK UNTO YOU I SPEAK NOT OF MYSELF: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

Quote:
Acts 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

Mark 6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

1 Thessalonians 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

1 Thessalonians 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

1 Thessalonians 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for THE WRATH IS COME UPON THEM TO THE UTTERMOST.

Thanks Murr for stirring up the ole bones. I enjoyed how the scriptures were all coming together as I typed that. That was fun!

Man oh man how I miss the preview feature.

 2009/12/27 14:47
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4499


 Re:

Hello again...

I strongly lean toward a "pre-wrath" perspective regarding a "gathering" of the Bride of Christ. There are plenty of reasons for this...and I have listed them in some of the other "end times" threads.

One thing that disappoints me in these sort of discussions is a tendency to make assumptions about those on opposite sides of our view. I have read many posts in which those of us who tend to lean toward a "pre-trib" (I prefer "pre-wrath") perspective are accused of trying to avoid tribulation. While there might be some folks who believe that way, most "pre-trib" folks are well aware that they will face tribulation in this present world. However, they simply feel that they will avoid the "wrath of God" that will come upon the entire world (hence, my preferred wording of "pre-wrath").

One description of that "day of the Lord" (I believe that there are multiple, specific references to different "days" of the Lord) is that it will occur at a time that resembles the day of Noah (Matthew 24:36-41). In those days, people were just going about life like normal...eating, drinking, marrying, divorcing -- all the way until the flood suddenly came. In fact, Jesus said that they "knew not" about the event that would quickly transpire shortly thereafter. This doesn't sound like a world that is enduring the most unimaginable events in the history of the world (with entire portions already destroyed). Yet, after those uneventful days during Noah's life, the flood came quickly upon the world...destroying it...with the exception of that remnant that escape the flood. Likewise, "pre-wrath" folks believe that they will escape God's wrath that will be poured out upon the entire earth. At this point, they believe that Christ will gather His bride much like the traditional Jewish wedding (in which the groom gathers his bride after he has prepared a place for her...and at a time that she doesn't know). This is akin to "one will be taken and the other one left" (Matthew 24:40-41).

I suppose that there are plenty of myths in regard to every side of this sort of discussion. I have known "pre-trib" believers who claim that some "post-tribbers" will not be "ready" for a sudden, unannounced return of the Lord to gather His bride. This is just as unfair as those post-tribbers who accuse the pre-tribbers of wanting to avoid tribulation.

Anyway, I suppose that this discussion will continue until it is history. At that point, there will not be a point in discussing it. The underlying principle is already undeniable: BE READY! We must be ready for tribulation, persecution, and/or a sudden gathering of the Groom for a Bride that has made herself ready. Yet, if we are spending time daily with our Lord...waiting at His feet...longing to see His face...pouring ourselves out to Him daily...then I think that we will be ready...regardless of the timing and manner of His choosing.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2009/12/27 16:11Profile









 Re:





Dear Murrcolr:


John the Baptist was a “type” of Elijah. Reincarnation has no place in God's scheme of things. The real Elijah will return during the Tribulation, and will be a witness to the entire world, and God will protect him from being harmed. When it is time, God will allow him to be killed, and he will resurrect from the dead on the third day, and ascend into heaven for all the world to see.

Elijah never died. We know that flesh and blood cannot inherit eternal life. Elijah must die, in order to receive the resurrected body of Christ.

All believers, that are alive on this earth before the tribulation will receive their new resurrected bodies at the rapture (before the Tribulation.) Those that have died before those that are still living will receive their new bodies first, and then we, that are alive will recieve ours, and join the Lord in the air, and return to heaven during the entire 7 year Tribulation..

All believers in Jesus Christ have ALREADY been delivered from the wrath to come:

10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come. (1 Cor 1:10)

Elijah and probably Enoch (who never experienced death)—the “two witnesses” ---do not appear on the earth until after that time. They are both in a specail place, waiting for this moment in history, when for 3 ½ years they will be on the earth, during the first part of the Tribulation, they will witness in Jerusalem, and bring millions of Jews to a saving faith in Christ Jesus, the Messiah. They will both be killed, and on the third day both will be resurrected from the dead, and ascend into heaven. Again, this event will bring millions more Jews and also millions of Gentiles (those Gentiles who did not take the mark of the beast) to belief in Jesus Christ, the Messiah, God in the flesh.

Revelation 11:3-12
[b]3. And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.4. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6. These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7. And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. 11. And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.[/b]

13. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14. The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly. 15. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17. Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


[color=990000][b]This is a wonderful time to be alive on this earth, as we see history line up with this prophecy. Israel is a nation again, after almost 1,000 years of being dispersed. No other nation has done such a thing. They are not only a nation, they occupy the same country God gave them to start with, with the same cities, and they have the same language that God gave them- Hebrew!!! This can only be of God. Read about all of the miracles that occurred in each one of the wars they have been involved in with the many Muslim nations that have collectively come against them. What an awesome God we serve!!!![/color][/b]

Sincerely,

Walter


 2009/12/27 16:37





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