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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What is "Permissible will"?

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MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Greeting roaring lamb

You wrote:Lastly, marrying the "wrong" person is not a salvation issue at all! The ONLY salvation issue is what you do with Christ and His work on the Cross.
___

I agree that marrying the wrong person is not a salvation issue, however saying that for six months you have heard the voice of God clearly tell you to do something and you have chosen to willfully rebel and disobey is a salvation issue don't you think? I would think that someone who professes to love the Lord and follow him would not continue on in sin and rebellion to Him with out some conviction and repentance...?

Can a believer go on knowingly sinning, continue in the behavior time and time again knowing its sin and still just take for granted that one day God will forgive them??

God Bless
mj

 2009/12/17 12:33Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
saying that for six months you have heard the voice of God clearly tell you to do something



This is the problem. God speaks [i]primarily[/i] in His Word.

We however seem to make His voice into a subjective thing(e.g. feelings, voices, etc.) and then when things go "wrong", we blame God. Maybe we should ask ourselves if we shouldn't "subjectify" God?

God's Word is clear on whom we should marry, and what marriage should look like. However, we are ALL in the process of sanctification and it can get very messy at times.

I do not want to diminish the pain and hurt caused by these situations, as I have been walking down this road for almost two years now myself. But the same God who allowed Joseph to be sold by his brothers, and the same God who orchestrated the death of His Son also holds me and works everything out for my good and His glory!


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patrick heaviside

 2009/12/17 12:45Profile
imnowhere
Member



Joined: 2009/8/1
Posts: 69


 Re:

Well said. But if God is speaking to someone specifically re a scenario and withholding peace, it is good to follow God's direction.

The peace of God transcends all understanding.

But I couldn't agree more that much of the time the answers are already in the bible.

Good word.

 2009/12/17 12:52Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
You know that the woman you married was God's plan because she said, "yes". Simple as that. There is no such thing as a "perfect one", and sadly that is a worldly concept that somehow has crept into the church.



I agree completely.

Decision making and understanding the "will of God" is a topic from which the vast majority of Christians have departed from a Biblical understanding, and it has horrific consequences.

Gary Frieson wrote an overview of his book "Decision Making and the Will of God" here: http://www.gfriesen.net/sections/willofgod_principles.php

It has still not been shown to me where God speaks to us in inaudible "voices" in our thoughts. All verses I've seen quoted can be seen to be taken out of context. We hear God's voice in His Word. We must take the responsibility to study it and know it thoroughly. The modern idea of "hearing God speak to me" usually turns into a sub-conscience cop out from knowing your Bible.

With care in Christ...


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Taylor Otwell

 2009/12/17 13:04Profile
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

I guess my point was this, if this person knows in their heart that they have clear leading from God on what they are to do and yet they disregard this and disobey then isn't that sin. If I clearly know in my heart that God does not want me to wear revealing clothing but the Bible does not tell me exactly what kinds of clothes are permissible or not then wouldn't it be sin for me to go ahead against my own conscious and wear the clothing any way? If this christian knows that he knows he is not to marry girl B and that this is what the Lord has for him and he does it anyway then that is sin and rebellion to sin. Now you could argue whether he is really hearing from God not to marry girl B but if he knows in his heart without any doubt that he is out of Gods will by doing so then he is in sin. After all is is about the attitudes of our hearts isn't it??

This is just my thoughts and I am speaking very broad here because I do not know the person, or the entire situation, just responding to the heart of the issue. If a believer knowingly walks out of Gods will and disobeys Him then by his very actions he shows that in that instance he does not have love for the Lord because he is unwilling to obey or submit unto the Lord. I am not saying that a person can not be forgiving for this attitude but I do think it is revealing of their heart and the attitudes of their heart?

Of course we do always want to put the things we are feeling to the test in the Word. I agree but there are times when God does speak to us and if we love Him we will be listening and willing to obey...don't you think???
God bless
mj

 2009/12/17 13:48Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

MaryJane,

On this point, I think it's important to distinguish between God's will and a person's conscience.

For instance, God allows freedom in whether we eat meat or not. Meat is clean for us to eat. But, if a person's conscience condemns them for eating meat, they should refrain. God doesn't condemn them; their own conscience does (for whatever reason). So, in wouldn't be proper for that person to go around saying "God told me not to eat meat". Their own conscience is what is giving them trouble, not God. God says all food is clean.

Now, if this person's conscience tells him not to marry a certain person, that is different than God telling him not to marry a certain person. God allows perfect freedom for us to marry whom we want (and I'm a "Calvinist"!), so long as they are believers. God establishes parameters for making important decisions. The first being his word, second being prayer for wisdom in studying the Scriptures, and the third being godly counsel from other believers. If we are within those parameters, we can marry the person we choose. Now, if after all the counsel, the person is still struggling with if it is "God's will" that he marry the person, I agree, he probably should refrain (Romans 14), but he shouldn't tell the girl "God told me not to", because God didn't tell him not to, his own conscience is bothering him.

If something is not clearly revealed in the Word, or derived from the Word using good and necessary consequence, then we have freedom to choose in that area. This includes things like our diet, whom we marry, where we live, what vocation we choose, etc. We have parameters (God's law) in the Scripture, and we walk in those parameters. But, within those parameters, there is freedom.

Paul Washer discusses this in one of his sermons, but I can't remember which one it is off the top of my head.

With care in Christ...


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Taylor Otwell

 2009/12/17 14:03Profile
MaryJane
Member



Joined: 2006/7/31
Posts: 3057


 Re:

Greetings Taylor

I will agree with you that there are things that are clearly spoken to in the Bible that if we love the Lord we will seek to do His will on. I also understand what you are sharing here about this person marrying this girl and that the Bible itself does not give a clear "thou shall not marry instruction" I guess I am not making clear what I was trying to share. I will consider what you shared here and pray on it. For me if I know that the Lord tells me "not to" for instance I struggle with making myself sick. The Bible does not teach that it is a sin for me to purposely make myself sick after I eat, but I know from the Lord that I am sinning against Him when I do so. If I continue doing this, knowing that it is in direct conflict to what the Lord has for me to do then I am in rebellion toward Him and I am in sin. This has been my understanding of things but I know that the Lord maybe showing me something that I have not considered before so I will put it to prayer.

Silo:I do want to clarify again I posted in very broad way on the attitude of the heart. Please do not take my posts to be as giving advice to anyone that they should or must follow. Seek God and the council of older mature, trusted brothers in your local body on this situation for they will know you best and therefore know best how to share with you.

God Bless and thank you for patiently sharing with me
Mj

 2009/12/17 14:26Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Quote:
It has still not been shown to me where God speaks to us in inaudible "voices" in our thoughts



You base your position on your own personal experience.

Phl 3:14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.


Phl 3:15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.


How does God reveal Himself to the individual? How does God give wisdom to those who ask?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2009/12/17 14:52Profile
TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Rookie,

His Spirit gives us understanding regarding his Scripture. Or, gives us wisdom by working in our hearts to make us desire the things of God.

I feel my argument is entirely Scriptural. If you can provide explicit reference in the Scripture to God directing believers what to do based on inaudibly speaking to them in their minds, I will prayerfully reconsider.

With care in Christ...


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Taylor Otwell

 2009/12/17 15:08Profile
twayneb
Member



Joined: 2009/4/5
Posts: 2002
Joplin, Missouri

 Re:

Taylor Wrote:

Quote:
If something is not clearly revealed in the Word, or derived from the Word using good and necessary consequence, then we have freedom to choose in that area. This includes things like our diet, whom we marry, where we live, what vocation we choose, etc. We have parameters (God's law) in the Scripture, and we walk in those parameters. But, within those parameters, there is freedom.



I am not sure I agree totally with this statement brother, but I do think it brings to the table another point of view that has been running through my own mind as I have read this thread.

We can invent a whole lot of theological terms to define what we see as "the way God wills or allows things", and after a while we confuse even ourselves. I guess I tend to take a view that is much more simple and straight forward. God has a will. It is up to us to decide whether we are going to submit to that will and walk in it, or whether we are going to reject that will and do our own thing. I agree with Taylor that the only objective will of God is what we find written in the Word. It is very clearly written in black and white (and red depending on your Bible). God's will for our lives in all other areas comes through His speaking directly to us through the leadings and dealings of the Holy Spirit. I think this is where I diverge slightly from Taylor. I believe God often does have a specific will for us in areas such as spouse, vocation, location, and perhaps what I wear today (Don't go to seed on that last one and start praying over every clothing choice. There are just times when someone has felt a distinct leading from the Holy Spirit in a simple area such as, "wear the red shirt today", and has found out it there was a divine reason for it.) This type of revelation of His will is subjective and needs to filtered through His objective will, His word, as well as discussed with mature spiritual counsel if it seems a fairly life changing thing.

To me, this is pretty much the extent of it.

I would also submit that God does not always "get His way" so to speak, and intentionally so. He has left some things up to us. The example mentioned previously about His desiring that all come to repentance, and not all do. There are some areas where God has put the ball in our court. It does not make Him any less Omniscient or Omnipotent. It simply means that He has decided to do it that way. I guess you could say that in some areas it is His will not to have it according to His desire.

Oh, Taylor, I would ask you to consider this as to the question of God speaking to people inaudibly. If God says a thing to a person, that person would use the terminology "God spoke to me", or "God revealed to me", or even "God showed me". Never have I heard anyone use the terminology, "God just inaudibly gave me a thought in my mind that I recognize as Him." I would encourage you to look at every instance in the NT where you find God speaking, revealing, ar showing someone something and look at the circumstances around that event. I can tell you from my own experience that God reveals things to me and gives me direction quite often in this way.




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Travis

 2009/12/17 18:16Profile





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