SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Anger / Hatred of God

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 Next Page )
PosterThread
IWantAnguish
Member



Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343
VCU @ Richmond, VA

 Anger / Hatred of God

How do reformed theologians resolve the tension that exists between the sovereign grace of God, and the holy hatred / indignation / anger / wrath of God?

If all men are truly depraved and wicked, all men equally deserve hell. I understand this and I agree with this completely.

But throughout Scripture, God reveals His anger towards several nations for debauchery / immorality, as well as Israel for falling away from Him and not keeping His commandments.

If all men are truly depraved and wicked, God must know that men are truly depraved and wicked and unable to turn to Him unless He grants them the grace and mercy to turn and repent towards Him... so why does He become angry at men for naturally being what they are... depraved / sinful wicked?

I'm not asking why God punishes them, or why God judges them... I'm asking, 'Why does God exhibit the emotion (?) of anger / fury?'


_________________
Sam Yoon

 2009/11/30 1:06Profile
IWantAnguish
Member



Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343
VCU @ Richmond, VA

 Re: Anger / Hatred of God

No thoughts?

:-(


_________________
Sam Yoon

 2009/11/30 23:34Profile
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2667
Nottingham, England

 Re:


Who knows?

 2009/12/1 1:56Profile
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3410
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Anger / Hatred of God

Anguish,

If you read Psalms 107, there are four times that God is angered and four times where He inflicts pain but then there is also four times where it says, "THEN they cried unto the Lord" and HE HEARD THEM or leads them or saves them or brings them out of where they WERE to where they should be.

10 Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron;
11 Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High:
12 Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help.
13 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses.
14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder.
15 [b]Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men![/b]

Could it be as simple as this? I think so!


_________________
Lisa

 2009/12/1 6:28Profile









 Re: Anger / Hatred of God



Hello brother Anguish,

Here are a few more thoughts for your melting pot.

1) Where does scripture use the word 'depraved'?

2) What is [u]God's[/u] definition of 'wicked'?

3) On what basis could God exhort / command Abram [color=3366FF]'Fear not, Abram: I [am] thy shield, [and] thy exceeding great reward.'[/color] (Gen 15:1) And, [color=3366FF]'the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I [am] the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou [u]perfect[/u].'[/color] (Gen 17:1) With Gen 16:2 in between?

4)Paul seems to shoot your thesis in the foot in Rom 2, when he [b]states[/b] that some Gentiles are capable of living right before God, using only their consciences.

Think, also, of the Gentile kings to whom God spoke, who did His will at His command.


(I read in a newpaper report of research evidence of the damage done recently to primitive societies where there was previously - it is claimed - no stealing nor marital infidelity nor sexual violence or immorality, until TV was introduced.)


So, may I suggest that the God of Calvary (the Lamb *slain before the foundation of the world) created the worlds with forgiveness already in His heart, and the destruction of Satan already planned, until the fulness of time should bring forth the Messiah, to live, and die, and rise again, and establish this *truth in the consciousness of mankind?


A close reading of Romans and Hebrews, with all their many cross-references, should acquaint you with all the finer details.



 2009/12/1 8:48
IWantAnguish
Member



Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343
VCU @ Richmond, VA

 Re:

While the Bible itself does not use the term 'depravity,' we must be careful in throwing out the baby with the bathwater... if we were to continue that line of logic, we would have to abolish the doctrine of the Holy Trinity, because the term 'Holy Trinity' is not found in the Bible.

These verses support the view of total depravity.

* Genesis 6:5: "The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
* Genesis 8:1: "And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.
* Job 15:14: What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?

15 Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight; how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water!

* Job 25:4-6: How then can man be in the right before God? How can he who is born of woman be pure? 5Behold, even the moon is not bright, and the stars are not pure in his eyes; 6 how much less man, who is a maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!"
* Psalms 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."
* Psalms 58:3: "The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies."
* Ecclesiastes 7:20: "Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins."
* Ecclesiastes 9:3: "This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead."
* Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"
* Jeremiah 13:23: (NIV): "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil."
* Isaiah 64:6 "We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away"
* Isaiah 64:7 "There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you, for you have hidden your face from us and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities."
* Isaiah 64:8 "But now, O LORD, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand."
* Mark 7:21-23: "For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."
* John 3:19: "And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil."
* John 6:44: "[Jesus said,] 'No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.'"
* John 6:64-65: "[Jesus said,] 'But there are some of you who do not believe.' (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.'"
* John 8:34: "Jesus answered them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.'"
* Romans 3:10-11: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."
* Romans 8:7-8: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
* 1 Corinthians 2:14: "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
* Ephesians 2:1-3: "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." (our depravity being emphasised in the concept of being "dead"; only something external -i.e. God- can give a dead man life)
* Titus 3:3: "For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another."

As to your comment on Romans 2, yes Paul says it is possible to live righteously according to conscience, but you must look at the entire context of the letter of Romans, as well as the first 3 chapters. Paul is writing the first 3 chapters to stop every mouth and make everybody guilty before God.

He is not saying, keep the law in order to become righteous, rather he is pressing the law of God upon Jews and Gentiles in order to show their depravity and inability to keep the entire counsel of God.

It is very similar to when Jesus told the rich young ruler to keep the commandments if he wanted to inherit eternal life. Was this something that the young man could begin to do in order to earn salvation? No, Jesus pressed the law upon him in order to bring his corrupt heart to light.

Anyway, I am not here to argue the doctrine of total depravity.

I am here to ask if anybody knows how to resolve the tension between Total Depravity / Election, and the hatred / anger of God towards unbelievers.

I am not questioning the act of God's judgment / righteousness that must be according to His Holiness... I am trying to find out why God exhibits anger towards depraved men.

Perhaps His anger is a byproduct of Election / Total Depravity... in the light of His plan for salvation to the certain predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son?

God does not wish to be angry, but He must be angry against sin, because it offends Him at His core, but He was willing to endure the scorn by the majority of mankind in order to bring salvation through Jesus Christ to His elect...

Hmm...

*edit... conscious =! conscience* :-P


_________________
Sam Yoon

 2009/12/1 12:16Profile
elected
Member



Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK

 Re:

Quote:
I am here to ask if anybody knows how to resolve the tension between Total Depravity / Election, and the hatred / anger of God towards unbelievers.



Anguish there is no tension in the bible about issues you mentioned. The tension is in our hearts for lack of revelation and better understanding of scriptures thru Holy Spirit.

For total depravity of man, total redemption and salvation in provided in Jesus Christ.There is no contradiction between the holy God of OT and the God of love of the NT. God is one. Election is according to forknowledge of God and he did not made hell for men but for demons and the devil.The bible warns us to flee from the wrath to come, while at the present offers us the free gift of salvation in Jesus Christ.



_________________
Redi

 2009/12/1 13:08Profile









 Re: Anger / Hatred of God

Thank you for your reply, Anguish. I appreciate all the scripturs you quoted. Perhaps I should have said that I accept that mankind is in need of a Saviour. That's what I was getting at when I wrote

Quote:
may I suggest that the God of Calvary (the Lamb *slain before the foundation of the world) created the worlds with forgiveness already in His heart, and the destruction of Satan already planned, until the fulness of time should bring forth the Messiah, to live, and die, and rise again, and establish this *truth in the consciousness of mankind?

amd recommended the whole of Romans and Hebrews.

I agree with elected that there is no conflict in scripture, but even in the Old Covenant, God undertook the major part.


I hear what you said about the doctrine of the Trinity, and while I don't dispute that God is definitely Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I would dispute that that's [i][b]all[/i][/b] that He is - the I AM - because others of His names are even more plural than three.

It's not clear from your reply whether you understood my final two paragraphs, but let me expand just a little on the phrase 'children of wrath'. I don't know if you've looked it up, but it also means 'children of unbelief'.

So, when you look at the tension in scripture from that point of view, you will find that it is not between God hating sinners, and showing grace to sinners, but between God hating unbelief (which is manifested by overt and covert idolatry (from which springs all the sins listed in the Old Testament) and pouring favour on those who seek Him till they find Him, or, respond to His drawings, having believed that His 'is'. Either way, of course it is God who is reaching out to them in the first place. (1 John 4:19)


Also, you don't seem to acknowledge that God's 'wrath' was poured out on 'the sin' which separates man from God, in Christ, at the same time as Christ died as our Substitute, taking the penalty (the Father's wrath) for our sins.

By these means in Christ's death, the cross marks the end of all necessity for man to struggle with sin in his own strength, and thus by faith, he can be saved from falling foul of God's judgement when he dies. (Eze 3:20)


Here's Oswald Chambers

[i]"In whom we have . . . the forgiveness of sins." Ephesians 1:7

Beware of the pleasant view of the Fatherhood of God - God is so kind and loving that of course He will forgive us. That sentiment has no place whatever in the New Testament. The only ground on which God can forgive us is the tremendous tragedy of the Cross of Christ; to put forgiveness on any other ground is unconscious blasphemy. The only ground on which God can forgive sin and reinstate us in His favour is through the Cross of Christ, and in no other way. Forgiveness, which is so easy for us to accept, cost the agony of Calvary. It is possible to take the forgiveness of sin, the gift of the Holy Ghost, and our sanctification with the simplicity of faith, and to forget at what enormous cost to God it was all made ours.

Forgiveness is the divine miracle of grace; it cost God the Cross of Jesus Christ before He could forgive sin and remain a holy God. Never accept a view of the Fatherhood of God if it blots out the Atonement. The revelation of God is that He cannot forgive; He would contradict His nature if He did. The only way we can be forgiven is by being brought back to God by the Atonement. God's forgiveness is only natural in the supernatural domain.

Compared with the miracle of the forgiveness of sin, the experience of sanctification is slight. Sanctification is simply the marvellous expression of the forgiveness of sins in a human life, but the thing that awakens the deepest well of gratitude in a human being is that God has forgiven sin. Paul never got away from this. When once you realize all that it cost God to forgive you, you will be held as in a vice, constrained by the love of God.[/i]

(20th November, The Forgiveness of God.)



I have a question: in John 6:44, does what Jesus said, implicitly mean that the Father is [i][b]not[/i][/b] drawing everyone?


Please think about that. Why should it mean He is drawing selectively?








Okay, that said, I believe the answer is very simple, because I do believe that God is speaking all the time, and that God knows when a person has 'heard' Him with their spiritual ears. At that moment, God's holds the person responsible for their response to the understanding God has instantaneously given. I believe Paul captures the formula here, in Rom 10:17. It really is simple. And, it accounts for the times God says 'and ye would not'.

A person only can refuse something he [u]knows[/u] he's being offered. That's how and why unbelief draws the wrath of God upon the unbeliever. The one being destroyed by His wrath has made a conscious choice, [i]not[/i] an [u]un[/u]conscious choice. See also John 16:9.



So, although we know all men are born sinners, God insists upon speaking to every man individually during his life, and then judging worthy of wrath, every man who consciously chooses not to believe unto salvation.


In John 8:44 'Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do' also denotes a choice being made by the unbeliever. The very fact that Jesus was saying it to people who could see Him with their own eyes, and could argue with Him about His origins, implies that they did 'know' who He was. Nevertheless, they chose to honour their natural spiritual father's desires, more than the desires of God. The big difference between such men and the disciples, is that the people Jesus 'chose' from among men were [i]already[/i] watching for the Messiah when He called them. Some Pharisees were, also, and despite the political difficulties it posed a Pharisee to [i]believe[/i], they recognised the Christ, and chose to follow Him.

 2009/12/1 16:33









 Re: Anger / Hatred of God


Is God angry?

This is news to me.

 2009/12/1 17:19
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3410
This world is not my home anymore.

 Re: Is God angry?

Quote:

DeepThinker wrote:

Is God angry?

This is news to me.


You, sir, are a troublemaker! :-P 8-) ;-)

I love it!


_________________
Lisa

 2009/12/1 18:10Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy