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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Distinction Between Being "Filled" and "Baptized" in the Holy Ghost

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I do not believe that ‘sonship’ as described in the New Testament was available before Pentecost, but I see that there is a principle at work in this verse which makes it clear that we shall be held accountable for what we were given and how we acted in stewardship of that privilege.



This is quite sobering! i was teaching one time and to my dismay was befuddled by a questing offered right in the middle of a point I was making. I was teaching on our accountability to God and how that "every idle word a man shall speak they shall give an account in the day of judgment." I was pointedly asked, "Is that 'words' that are 'under the blood' or every word we speak?" I was stunned and answered, "I'm not sure." My point is, the person seemed to suggest that we could 'plead the blood' over their whole life and therefor be unaccountable before God for anything they do. They have a belief they can just make 'blanket' prayers for forgiveness that absolve them from accountability before God.

What is your feeling on this?

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/15 14:46Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
My point is, the person seemed to suggest that we could 'plead the blood' over their whole life and therefor be unaccountable before God for anything they do. They have a belief they can just make 'blanket' prayers for forgiveness that absolve them from accountability before God.
What is your feeling on this?

mmmm My feeling is that it is just another evangelical superstition. I'm sure God is not nearly such a good theologian as I am :-? and that if the prayer is genuienly prayed that God will accommodate it without any problem.

I hear such peculiar things prayed and sung, but I know that God is not stumbled by our efforts. My real anxiety is that the pray-er believes that a form of words has some inherent power. As I have said before, this is magic not faith. 'the blood' was for God's benefit and observation not Satan's. 'When I see the blood I will pass over you'.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/11/15 15:12Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

So do you think we, as Christians, will answer to God (give an account) for every idle word we speak?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/15 15:16Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Br. Robert wrote:

Quote:
I certainly hope I'm not numbered with the transgressors. I should stick with Paul's request for the Saints to Pray that utterance would be given him and just leave the whole rhema and logos thing alone. Like so many other things, any truth that might be there has been so blasphemed that you can't even use it.



As it is now so it was back then:

Ezekiel 13

Ezek. 13:3 Thus says the Lord GOD: “Woe to the foolish prophets, who follow their own spirit and have seen nothing! 4 O Israel, your prophets are like foxes in the deserts. 5 You have not gone up into the gaps to build a wall for the house of Israel to stand in battle on the day of the LORD. 6 They have envisioned futility and false divination, saying, “Thus says the LORD!’ But the LORD has not sent them; yet they hope that the word may be confirmed. 7 Have you not seen a futile vision, and have you not spoken false divination? You say, “The LORD says,’ but I have not spoken.”

Ezek. 13:8 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: “Because you have spoken nonsense and envisioned lies, therefore I am indeed against you,” says the Lord GOD. 9 “My hand will be against the prophets who envision futility and who divine lies; they shall not be in the assembly of My people, nor be written in the record of the house of Israel, nor shall they enter into the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the Lord GOD.

Ezek. 13:10 “Because, indeed, because they have seduced My people, saying, ‘Peace!’ when there is no peace—and one builds a wall, and they plaster it with untempered mortar— 11 say to those who plaster it with untempered mortar, that it will fall. There will be flooding rain, and you, O great hailstones, shall fall; and a stormy wind shall tear it down. 12 Surely, when the wall has fallen, will it not be said to you, “Where is the mortar with which you plastered it?’ ”

I believe there is no difference, listen again to the root of the problem: 6 They have envisioned futility and false divination, saying, “Thus says the LORD!’ But the LORD has not sent them; yet they hope that the word may be confirmed. "

They prophesied on their own and then hoped that God would confirm their prophesy. That is putting the cart before the horse. Likewise they prophesied, "Peace." Yet God was angry with that generation, and judgment was near. What is the content of what we hear today? It is the opposite of the message that God gave Ezekiel to preach.

What can be learned from this Scripture? At times false prophets abound, yet there are a few who God is using.

So Br. Robert I would encourage you not to give up but to perservere. Through the use of the word of God He will teach us to discern between good and evil. Don't give up because of false prophets. Seek God and He will show you the difference between logos and rhema.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/11/15 18:11Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Thanks for the encouragement Bro. Jeff,

I heard Leonard Ravinhill briefly touch on this issue in the interview video. It was based on II Corinthians 11:13-15; for those such 'are' false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ, for even the Adversary doth transform himself into a messenger of light and no wonder then, if also his ministrants do transform themselves as ministrants of righteousness -- whose end shall be according to their works (YLT) This passage seems to clearly indicate that the enemy has agents in church pulpits! A "preacher of righteousness" that is actually sent from the Devil? Could it be that the Holy Spirit is so 'inactive' in the lives of Christians that they cannot discern the difference between true and false ministers of the Gospel? These things are spiritually discerned. I have a 'practical' rule of thumb; if their message does not match the obvious condition of the world and the Church, they are obviously false. Would God send His ministers to preach a word contrary to His peoples condition? Would the Great Physician prescribe an false prescription for a sick Church? Would He give them a sugar pill when they need the antidote for sin? Would He bid them to look upon a golden Rolex or the Brazen Serpent?

If God were to pull back the covers and expose the 'shepherds' for who they really are in many ministries, it would probably scare us to death. I have always said, there are 3 types of people in the average church: sheep, goats, and wolves. Has it happened in our generation like Paul feared that after his departure grievious wolves would enter in not sparing the flock? Think of how weighty some of his letters were like Galatians, leveling anathema on the heads of false teachers. How much more so in our day, if we only had the discernment to see them and the boldness to rebuke them! How much more in our times do we not need a fresh infilling of the Holy Spirit to equip us to weild the word of God! Titus dealt with liars, evil beasts, and slow bellies and was told to rebuke them sharply that they may be sound in the faith. Don't blunt the sword- rebuke them SHARPLY. That is the prescription for these people. That is the procedure we need.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/16 8:07Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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 Re:

Logos and rhEma: part 2
I sometimes use Trench’s Synonyms of the New Testament (1865). He is still regarded as the master in this field. I thought I would look to see if he had anything pertinent to say to our studies.

He doesn’t line logos with rhEma directly. He has topics on
1. laleO, legO (lalia, logos)
2. logos, phone
3. logos, muthOs

His writings are very condensed and he used great slabs of quotations in Latin which is no help for me, but it is interesting that he did not see particular significance in logos, rhEma. This indicates that the whole thesis of the ‘word of faith gurus’ (WOF) is a novel interpretation of these words. I am not a traditionalist but I think it very unlikely that such a fundamental issue as the WOF would want to make this is dubious when it has no provenance.

His comments on ‘logos’ ‘lalia’. Speaking of the verbs (legO, and laleO) he says “if in ‘lalein’ (laleO) the fact of uttering human speech is the prominent action, the legein (legO) it is the words uttered, and these are correlative to reasonable thoughts within the breast of the utterer.” He goes on to say that a parrot might ‘laleO’ as its emphasis is ‘utterance’ but that a parrot could never ‘legO’ as “in the legein lies the thought of the mind, as the correlative to the words of the lips and the necessary condition of them.

laleO expresses the fact of opening the mouth to speak, as opposed to the remaining silent, but legO proceeds to declare what the speaker actually said.

He then comments “They that are of God hear God’s words, his rhEmata (plural of rhEma) as elsewhere (John 3:34, 8:47), his lalea as here, it is called; which they that are not of God do not and cannot hear.”

This may all sound a bit abstruse but he then goes on to quote Philo. “Philo makes the distinction of the logos and the rhEma to be that of the whole and its parts.” I think this is interesting. I think it implies that behind ‘logos’ is the thought, while behind ‘rhEma’ is the ‘logos’. Both are parts of the function of speech. It cannot be proved that ‘rhEma’ is the particular injection of a command which has power in a way that ‘logos’ does not. It is interesting that in my Newberry Bible he always indicates ‘rhEma’ in the margin by the word ‘utterance’. The ‘logos is rhEma-ed’. The ‘logos’ comes to us in ‘rhEmas’ but any word of God that comes to us is a ‘rhEma’. rhEma is just the mechanics of voicing the logos.

Just my thoughts…


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Ron Bailey

 2004/11/16 9:06Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The ‘logos’ comes to us in ‘rhEmas’ but any word of God that comes to us is a ‘rhEma’. rhEma is just the mechanics of voicing the logos.



Thanks Bro. Ron,

How then can we describe the phenomana of "A word in due season." Not in the word of faith sense, but in the pastoral sense. I am thinking about the Sword of the Spirit, or the Word in the hand (as it were) of the Holy Spirit, used for a definite time, place, and circumstance. The "He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the Churches" 'thing'.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/16 9:45Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Robert

Quote:
How then can we describe the phenomana of "A word in due season." Not in the word of faith sense, but in the pastoral sense. I am thinking about the Sword of the Spirit, or the Word in the hand (as it were) of the Holy Spirit, used for a definite time, place, and circumstance. The "He that hath an ear let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the Churches" 'thing'.

[b] A man hath joy in the answer of his mouth; And a word in due season, how good is it! [/b] (Pro 15:23 ASV) I think is just the synchronising of the Spirit in the way He brings the word of God to us ‘seasonally’. It is a reference to its ‘aptness’. The ‘word’ of the Spirit is, I think, the piercing word that pins us to the spot, rather than belabours us with a blunt instrument.
I am sure that in a corporate and personal sense we know the times when the Lord spoke exactly to our condition in such a way that we knew ‘this is the day’. That might happen as a result of my daily reading, or might just be the strains of a chorus that I hear. I think we ought not to seek for this in that such seeking like leave us open to other spirits putting verses under our noses; as did Satan in the Lord’s temptation. The safer thing is to have an open heart and let the word find us; He knows where I am.
At the another level [b] Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath set over his household, to give them their food in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. [/b] (Mat 24:45-46 ASV) it is the responsibility of the ‘faithful and wise servant’ to give appropriate ‘words’ at appropriate times.
God is always speaking, I think, but we have to come within the sound of His voice. Sometimes a simple act of obedience can open up vast areas of truth. It’s just that we have taken the step that brought us within the sound of the voice.
Is this what you mean?





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Ron Bailey

 2004/11/16 10:55Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
He knows where I am



You said it all right here! And I can testify to the truth of it many times over.

Quote:
Is this what you mean



Absolutely!

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/16 11:44Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Br. Ron wrote:

Quote:
it is the responsibility of the ‘faithful and wise servant’ to give appropriate ‘words’ at appropriate times.
God is always speaking, I think, but we have to come within the sound of His voice. Sometimes a simple act of obedience can open up vast areas of truth. It’s just that we have taken the step that brought us within the sound of the voice.



This has been my experience. The act of obedience has come when the carnal mind refuses to hear the words of Scripture, yet as I read Scripture the same struggle always surfaces. This struggle is centered in self-preservation. When I submit to His word, He becomes evermore large in my world. The things of my world take on more of what Scripture does in me, and casts out the pollution of the wisdom and philosophies that are against the lesson that is learned in that season.

Oswald Sanders writes about the substance of Joshua's faith was found in meditating on the word of God.

"Then he was Commanded to Mediate on the Word.

“This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth, but thou shalt meditate therein day and night…for then shalt thou make they way prosperous and then thou shalt have good success.” Vs 8-9

The written Word of God was henceforth to be his hand-book, his manual of instruction in warfare. Obedience to it would constitute the secret of his success. This, not the might of his sword, was Joshua’s only equipment, even as it was Christ’s in His conflict in the Wilderness. If he did not literally soak himself in the Word, his strength and courage would ooze out of his fingertips when he came to meet the foe. In it he was to find his marching-orders, the science of warfare and the plan of his campaign.

Had Joshua lived in our day, he would not, like so many professing Christians today, have saturated himself in magazines and tasty novels, but in the Word of God, of which he then had only a very small portion. Is this what you are doing? The recruit must master his weapons long before he reaches the front lines. Neglect of meditation—hard thinking, not dreamy reverie—on the Word of God, is the most fruitful source of lost spiritual blessing and anemic spiritual life. Note that from Eph. 5:18 and Col. 3:16 we learn that the same results follow in Christian character and relationships, from being filled with the Spirit, and being filled with the Word.
Quote:
You will remain filled with the Spirit only so long as you remain filled with the Word.

" The above quote is of Oswald Sanders and not Br. Roberts.

Br. Robert, I agree with your response. The only way one can discern between the world and God, the evil and the good, is if he immerces himself in the word of God. To me this is really what water baptism represents. To be wash by the living water, cleanses us from the pollution of Satan's world.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/11/16 12:13Profile





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