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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Was the Apostle Paul A Hypocrite?

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Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
KingJimmy wrote:
Quote:
defaulting on a loan is not a necessity, it is not inevitable.
Therefore, it isn't the same reason.

True, defaulting on a loan isn't a necessity and it isn't inevitable. However, we as the seed of Adam are in default with God. Like the parable, we are in such debt there is no hope that we can ever pay back all that we owe... but we still owe. Thankfully, Jesus Christ has paid our debt by His death on the cross.
Quote:
Yes, but we put ourselves in debt by choice.

We are born debtors, much like every American child who is already 36,000 in debt the moment he is born.

t is unjust to demand payment for a debt from who did not incur it.

God does not demand debt from them who did not incur one.

You are wrong that every American child who is already 36,000 in debt the moment he is born.

 2009/11/11 18:52Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

This verse is pointing out that man's favorite is not always God's favorite.



True, but that is not all that it points out. It points out that man cannot do anything to change his cirumstance, rather, he is entirely dependent upon God to rescue him and show him mercy.


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Jimmy H

 2009/11/11 19:00Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

t is unjust to demand payment for a debt from who did not incur it.



We were in Adam when he incurred this debt. Adam was the federal head of our race, representing all of humanity before God. We are culpable for not only Adam's debt, but ours as well. Jesus condemned the Pharisees using this logic:

Matthew 23:29 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, `If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31 "So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. 33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

Quote:

You are wrong that every American child who is already 36,000 in debt the moment he is born.



America is trillions of dollars in debt right now. Whatever the exact figure is, every child born in this country is automatically on the hook to pay this debt back the moment they enter this world. They did not incur this debt, but it is a debt they will be forced to pay.


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Jimmy H

 2009/11/11 19:06Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
KingJimmy wrote:
Quote:
It is unjust to demand payment for a debt from who did not incur it.

We were in Adam when he incurred this debt.

We are only "in Adam" when we are alive.
That is why it says that "all in Adam are dying"
You can't be dying until you are alive.

Quote:
Adam was the federal head of our race, representing all of humanity before God.

federal headship only goes so far.
Just as the President bombs a country, so do we.
However, if the president murders someone, we do not.
Likewise, just as Adam was kicked out of the Garden, so were we, however, when Adam sinned, it was only him who was affected and inured guilt.

It is an injustice to hold anyone to someone else's debt.

Quote:
We are culpable for not only Adam's debt, but ours as well. Jesus condemned the Pharisees using this logic:

This is contrary to reality.
Your not even culpable for your dad's sin, how much more are you not culpable for your great
great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great...etc... grandfather's sin.

We can't even be held for our country's federal head's personal sin, how musch less are we held accountable for Adam's.

Quote:
You are wrong that every American child who is already 36,000 in debt the moment he is born.

America is trillions of dollars in debt right now. Whatever the exact figure is, every child born in this country is automatically on the hook to pay this debt back the moment they enter this world. They did not incur this debt, but it is a debt they will be forced to pay.
Americas debt is not a new born child's personal debt.
Only personal debt is held to one's account.
The personally will not be forced to pay.

Lets get real here.

 2009/11/11 22:15Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

We are only "in Adam" when we are alive.
That is why it says that "all in Adam are dying"
You can't be dying until you are alive.



The author of Hebrews insists that the Levites paid tithes to Melchizedek while they were "in Abraham," and based on this, argues for the superiority of Christ's priesthood.

Quote:

Likewise, just as Adam was kicked out of the Garden, so were we, however, when Adam sinned, it was only him who was affected and inured guilt.



Romans 5:18 insists that Adam's transgression resulted in the condemnation of all men, not just Adam.

Quote:

Americas debt is not a new born child's personal debt.
Only personal debt is held to one's account.
The personally will not be forced to pay.

Lets get real here.



So, let's tell our children that our debt to China is simply ours, and that they are under no liability to pay them back if we fail to do so in our lifetime. I don't think China will take to kindly to that.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/11/11 22:26Profile









 Re: Was the Apostle Paul A Hypocrite?




What is the main similarity of the Christian cults and liberal Christianity??? How do they agree??? They both reject Paul the Apostle, and every book he penned, through the power of the Holy Spirit, found in the Bible.

They are more than happy to post here on Sermonindex, and ask demeaning questions about Paul, to draw others into their lair. Anonymous (a cultist) was more than happy to start this thread, with the title "Was the Apostle Paul a Hypocrite?"

At least anonymous was kind enough to call Paul an Apostle. But, that was only used as a ploy to draw us in. He actually totally rejects Paul, and everything he stands for.

And of course let us not forget Logic (another cultist) who is happy to support anonymous in any way he can. They act as a tag team, a cult tag team to be specific. Their purpose? To twist God's Gospel of Salvation, and God's Spirit breathed Word, the Bible.




[url=http://www.challies.com/archives/dvd-reviews/dvd-review-mark.php]Marks of a Cult[/url]

Marks of a Cult is the latest in a series of DVDs produced by The Apologetics Group and hosted by Eric Holmberg. This latest presentation seeks to answer some of the following questions:

1. Why are Baptists properly considered Christians, but Mormons are not?

2. Why is the Jehovah’s Witness religion classified as an anti-Christian cult while Presbyterians, Wesleyans and Pentecostals are simply seen as denominations within the Christian faith?

3. How does one differentiate between true Biblical Christianity and an aberrant religious movement?

[color=990000][b]4. And just what are the marks of a cult?[/color][/b]

The presentation describes cults through the four marks developed originally, I believe, by Watchman Fellowship. These marks are easy to remember and are helpful in forming a framework around which we can differentiate a cult from a church. The marks are as simple as add, subtract, multiply and divide.

[color=990000][b]Add: Cults add to Scripture.[/color][/b] The revelation of God provided in the Bible is never sufficient for a cult. Thus they must add to the written revelation of Scripture, usually with additional scriptures or with their own translation of the Bible. In this way we have books such as The Pearl of Great Price of the Mormons and the New World Translation of the Bible produced by the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Since the Bible claims exclusivity as the written revelation of God, we must see that other books, even if the followers of cults claim that they are equal to the Bible, must actually be over and above the Word of God.

[color=990000][b]Subtract: Cults subtract from the person of Christ. [/color][/b]
Cults cannot tolerate the divinity and exclusivity of Jesus and thus usually reduce Him to being a created being. In some cases they make Jesus only a manifestation or mode of God. In either case, the role of Jesus as revealed in Scripture is diminished.

[color=990000][b]Multiply: Cults multiply the requirements of salvation.[/color][/b]

Salvation, as it is presented in the Scriptures, is by God’s grace through faith alone. Cults continually add to the requirements of salvation, always adding human works as a necessary prerequisite to salvation. No cult teaches or endorses justification by faith alone. Thus all cults reject the very heart of the gospel.

[color=990000][b]Divide: Cults divide the loyalty of believers. Each cult believes that it has exclusive revelation and understanding of God that ensures its followers are either exclusively God’s people or are somehow more blessed than others. Cults always seek to divide believers against each other based on the previous three marks. Thus cults are, by their very nature, divisive.[/color][/b]

Each of these four marks receives a good deal of attention within the presentation. Each one is proven to be true within the belief systems of several different cults including the Seventh Day Adventists, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (the Mormons), Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Scientists, The Moonies, and Oneness Pentecostals (or the Jesus-Only Movement). Each receives the attention of a large group of highly-regarded Christian apologists.

Those who were consulted in the making of this film are:
Dr. James R. White, Alpha & Omega Ministries

Dr. E. Calvin Beisner, Knox Theological Seminary

Dr. R. Fowler White, Knox Theological Seminary

James Walker, Watchman Fellowship

David Henke, Watchman Fellowship

Dr. Steve Cowan, Apologetics Resource Center

Craig Branch, Apologetics Resource Center

Clete Hux, Apologetics Resource Center

Jerry Johnson, The Apologetics Group

As with the previous DVDs released by The Apologetics Group, Marks of a Cult is well-researched, well-made and the facts presented are well-documented. This is a rational, measured, convicting examination of the marks of a cult as they stand against the claims of Scripture. It clocks in at almost two hours which is just enough time to do justice to the topic. It moves quickly and should easily capture the attention of adults and teens. It would be a valuable addition to any personal or church library.

The DVD is available from Monergism Books, and can be ordered here:

[url=http://www.challies.com/archives/dvd-reviews/dvd-review-mark.php]Marks of a Cult[/url]

Sincerely,

Walter

 2009/11/11 22:52
Miccah
Member



Joined: 2007/9/13
Posts: 1752
Wisconsin

 Re:


Logic wrote:

Quote:



God does not demand debt from them who did not incur one.





Jesus????


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Christiaan

 2009/11/11 23:46Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re: Please start a new thread and continue discussions there.

Guys,

I have a small request.

None of you doubts the truth of the Apostle Paul's teachings, because it is Scripture, right? Since you are discussing something altogether different from the original title of this thread, which is revolting, [i]please[/i] start a new thread with the appropriate title and continue your discussions there. This thread with its offensive title should be allowed to sink into oblivion, where it belongs.

Thank you.

 2009/11/12 0:05Profile
NSCalvinist
Member



Joined: 2009/11/9
Posts: 18


 Re:

Do a word search in the New Testament for the word "debt" and you will see that God forgives us of our debt. Nowhere does it say that our debt is paid, but that our debt is pardoned. Just search for the word "debt" and you will see that the Bible never says our debt is paid. Our debt is eternal hell. Jesus made it possible for our debt to be forgiven, but he did not suffer eternal hell.

The idea of an atonement is that it substitutes the penalty of the law, so that our penalty can be remitted. But if our debt is paid, there can be no pardon. If our penalty is executed, there can be no remission of sins.

What kingjimmy is saying is that God does not forgive us our sins and that there is no real remission, which is clearly refuted by a simple reading of the Bible. Our sins are forgiven, not punished. Our penalty is remitted, not executed. The atonement was a substitute for our penalty, making it possible for God to pardon us of our debt. The atonement did not satisfy the wrath of God, the atonement made it possible for God to turn from His wrath when we are converted.

New School Calvinists like Jonathon Edwards Jr., Albert Barnes, Moses Stuart, Nathan Taylor, Nathan Beman, and others understood that the payment of a debt view of the atonement was inconsistent with grace, mercy, and forgiveness. The payment view is inconsistent with the doctrines of grace.

And the idea that we are guilty of Adam's sin because we participated in Adam's sin, being in his loins (his semen or sperm) would also make us guilty of all the sins of all our parents. If your grandfather was a murderer, you would be guilty of his crime because you were in his loins as his semen. A simple reading of Ezekiel 18 would refute this misconception of seminal idenity.

New School Calvinists like Albert Barnes rejected both the imputed guilt of Adam view (federal headship) and the seminal identity view (organic idenity) because there are real problems with both.

We are accountable for our sins alone. We are not accountable for Adam's sin, but his sin has contributed to our own. The result of his disobedience was that we have all chosen to be sinners. "by one man's disobedience, many were made sinners". By opening our eyes by eating from the tree of knowledge, Adam has provided us with an opportunity to be sinners which we have freely chosen to take by choosing to sin. His disobedience has contributed to our choice to be sinners. Likewise Christ has provided us with an opportunity to be saved if we freely choose to repent and believe. Both damnation and salvation are conditional upon our choice to sin or repent.

(New School Calvinism was declared to be orthodox by the Synod of Philadelphia. Barnes was brought up on trial for charges of heresy and was acquitted by the Synod. New School Calvinism teaches the natural ability of man, the substitutionary governmental atonement, and denies the imputed guilt of Adam's sin to the innocent).

 2009/11/12 0:14Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Nowhere does it say that our debt is paid, but that our debt is pardoned.



This is true. But the idea of "debt" is also tied to the idea of "redemption." Redemption is a term of "purchase," and is used in a variety of contexts. One of those being the slave market, whereby one comes by and purchases a slave. Back in Biblical days, one was often sold into slavery in order to pay back debts owed. The Scriptures declare time and time again that we have been "redeemed." Which means somebody else took money they had, which we did not have, and purchased us. This act "satisfied" our debts.

Quote:

Our debt is eternal hell. Jesus made it possible for our debt to be forgiven, but he did not suffer eternal hell.



Isaiah 53 makes it clear he suffered the punishment due to us on the cross. You always ignore this, that the stroke due to us, Isaiah says, was given to Christ.

Isaiah 53:8 ...He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due.

He received the punishment due to us. Death is the punishment for sin, "The day you sin you shall die." Hell is but an extension of continued existence one has entered into by means of death.

Quote:

We are not accountable for Adam's sin, but his sin has contributed to our own.



Adam's sin didn't merely contribute to our own, it also condemned us according to Romans 5:18

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

And as a result of Adam's sin condemning us, "through one act of righteousness," we are made right with God. That is Adam's sin condemned us, but for those who are in Christ, the obedience of Christ gave us the life and mercy we would otherwise not be able to receive.


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Jimmy H

 2009/11/12 7:07Profile





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