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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Leo_Grace wrote:
Logic,

Is this your "ministry" and your "spiritual gift" - putting words in the mouths of others? You presume to know the minds of people better then they know themselves - what arrogance!

Not arrogance, but only saying what I understand I'm being told.

I hear that you don’t choose to sin, but you still do.
I hear that none of you can stop sinning.
I hear that you are all sinners.

The reality is that if you can't stop, then you are innocent, because no one is guilty of anything out of their control.

Quote:
Quote:
If you can't stop sinning, and have no control of your sin, you have not been cleansed from all sin & all unrighteousness, and you are still bound to sin and are not free from it.

These are your words and not my own.

Can you stop sinning?
You never said that you could.

If you can stop sinning, then why are you always falling short?

Quote:
I have been born again. I have seen the holiness of God and I am appalled at my own sorry state.

What is this "sorry state"?

Our "state" should be one to be contented in (Php 4:11)

If your state is appalling, then change it.
If you can’t change it, then let God do His work and He will change it.

This is why I don’t see a “sorry state which I am appalled at, because God has changed me.
I am not the same man I was even 5 years ago.

Quote:
I do not choose to sin.

Then why do you?
I always admit that I choose to sin when I do.
Are you denying your culpability to sin?

Quote:
In fact, I'm pretty confident that I have fewer sins that you or truefaithsav, who reek of the sin of pride.

It's not pride, it's claiming the work of God in my life to free me from the bondage to sin and cleans me from all unrighteousness and sin.

I claim the power of God to keep me from sin on a daily basis.

You seem to deny this.

[b]QUESTION FOR YOU:[/b]
Does Leonard Ravenhill reek of the sin of pride?
He says,
"You say I'm preaching sinless perfection. You say, "Well, do you think you can get to a place where you can't sin?" I know nothing of the kind. It is not impossible to sin, but it's possible not to commit sin. (LEONARD RAVENHILL)

"I got news for you; if you're a Christian, you don't sin! You've got victory over sin! The Lord Jesus Christ came to purify us unto holiness and nothing but purity will satisfy Him!"
(LEONARD RAVENHILL)

Since he agrees with me is he "arrogant" also?

Quote:
Because I have seen the holiness of God, I am humbled and I look at myself and can't help but see how far short I fall of God's holiness (unlike you both who think nothing of claiming parity with Christ's holiness).

Because I have seen the holiness of God, I examine myself (1Corinth 11:28) whether I am in the faith; I test my self, because I acknowledge that Jesus Christ is in me (2Corinth 13:5).

Because I have seen the holiness of God, I am humbled and I look away from myself and repent of all my sins and choose to never sin again.

But if I do ever sin, I have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Quote:
I confess my sins, and I see them because I am not too proud to admit they exist in my life.

I confess my sins, and when ever I do sin, I admit it, but I will not let them exist in my life.

When I sin, I quickly repent and plan to never do it again.

Quote:
Quote:
Logic wrote:
I do sin.

Finally! Must have been really difficult for you to admit it, but any believer who has seen the holiness of God in Scripture, and looks honestly upon himself cannot help but see this: I do sin.

It’s not “finally, I have admitted it before, and it is not difficult at all, I am just stating the facts.

Quote:
But wait... earlier you also said:
Quote:
If you can't say that you have no sin, then you are denying 1John 1:7&9, being cleansed from all sin & all unrighteousness.

So, by your first admission, are you denying the power of Christ in 1 John 1:7? Are you yet unsaved because you said "I do sin."?

No, I have a relationship with God through Christ John 17:3.
I am saved.

Just because I sin does not nullify my salvation.
Just because I sin does not nullify my cleansing from all sin & all unrighteousness; my sin only reveals the quality of my walk with Him at that moment.

My sin warns me that if I stay on the path which lead me to that choice, I am in danger of sinning against my Lord & savior even more.

Quote:
The truth will reveal itself, and false teaching will eventually contradict itself.

I have not yet found a contradiction in my doctrine.

However, I see many in other's doctrines.

Quote:
Logic, I do believe you are a born-again brother.

Thanx.

Quote:
But you cling to erroneous beliefs about the holiness of the believers.

I only agree with those I hear the truth from; Leonard Ravenhill, John Wesley, Asa Mahan, Winkie Pratney...etc...

Quote:
The path to holiness begins when we recognize our sinfulness before God.

That is only the start; the first step, which is salvation.
The second step is to forsake all your sins and choose to never sin again.

Along the rest of the path, we must acknowledge God's power to keep you free from the bondage of sin; faultless, blameless, pure, and most of all Christ like.

If you are not living a sinless life, you are not being Christ like.
If you are repenting all the time, it proves that you are sinning and not being Christ like.

Quote:
We do not choose to sin; we strive to live a victorious Christian life each day

So, you agree with me, you do not sin every day, not even every week, hopefully not even every month.

Unless you do sin every day; but then, how so if you do not choose to sin?
If you strive to live a victorious Christian life each day, how then do you sin every day?

Quote:
we follow the commands and teachings of Christ - among which is the admonition to be humble and never deny our sinfulness.

If you claim the truth, you are still being humble.
The truth is that we don’t sin every day, week, month...etc...

I would be lying if I said that I am still sinful.

To be sinful is characterized by being or full of sin. Since we do not sin every day, week, month, we are not full of sin.

Quote:
God teaches us to recognize our sins because unless we admit it's presence, how can we deal with it, and how can we avoid it in the future?

I recognize my sin when I do sin, then I truly admit it's presence and repent of it quickly.

I avoid it in the future by loving God, for love fulfills the law; no one can sin when they are loving God.

[b]Luke 18:14[/b] [color=CC3300]“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”[/color]
I am not exalting myself when I claim to be with out sin.
I am actually being humble by admitting I have sinned.
Then I exalt God (while staying humble) by telling of His great power to keep His people free from the bondage of sin; faultless, blameless, pure, and most of all Christ like.

I admit my need for Christ every day, and choose to follow Him all day; no one will sin at all when they am walking with Him.

 2009/10/27 22:10Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Logic, you said:

Quote:
"I got news for you; if you're a Christian, you don't sin! You've got victory over sin! The Lord Jesus Christ came to purify us unto holiness and nothing but purity will satisfy Him!" (LEONARD RAVENHILL)

Since he agrees with me is he "arrogant" also?


He agrees with you in what? That we have victory over sin in Christ? That Jesus came to purify us into holiness? Even I agree with you in that. I would even go farther and say that Jesus, through the Holy Spirit has the power to lead us into a pure and holy life. There is nothing missing from Jesus' end. But you are barking up the wrong tree.

The question is this: Did Leonard Ravenhill ever claim to live a totally sinless life after Christ did his work in him? Show me where he claimed such a thing. I predict that you cannot find any such claim by Ravenhill because he was a true man of God - humble enough to believe all the teachings of Christ, specially those that point out the weakness of men.

Listen to yourself. You said:
Quote:
I do sin.


You also said:
Quote:
I recognize my sin when I do sin, then I truly admit it's presence and repent of it quickly.


And then:
Quote:
I am not exalting myself when I claim to be with out sin.


Listen how you contradict yourself.

Quote:
I only agree with those I hear the truth from; Leonard Ravenhill, John Wesley, Asa Mahan, Winkie Pratney...etc...


I thought Christians we supposed to follow Christ, and Him alone.

This is my last post on our discussion - you are incorrigible.

 2009/10/27 22:46Profile
White_Stone
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 1196
North Central Florida

 Re:

What is happening to this forum?

I find the very title of this thread extremely offensive. I gave it a number of days and it did not seem to fade off, nor become locked, so I looked in it.

Upon trying to read just the last page, I give up. What is this? Point, Counter-Point?? Does every comment deserve dissection and refutation?

Perhaps it is the season for this? I do not understand how the Body of Christ is magnified here.

If this was my first visit to the site, it would be my last.


_________________
Janice

 2009/10/27 23:01Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Quote:

White_Stone wrote:
What is happening to this forum?

I find the very title of this thread extremely offensive. I gave it a number of days and it did not seem to fade off, nor become locked, so I looked in it.

Upon trying to read just the last page, I give up. What is this? Point, Counter-Point?? Does every comment deserve dissection and refutation?

Perhaps it is the season for this? I do not understand how the Body of Christ is magnified here.

If this was my first visit to the site, it would be my last.



I agree. I apologize to all for my part in this.

 2009/10/27 23:35Profile









 Re: Is Paul a hypocrite?

I think it's sad the way "fellow believers" are persecuting TrueFaithSav here. You would think brothers and sisters would treat each other much better than this. It is hard to tell who the arrogant ones are here.

The controversy about Paul started way back during the time of James the Righteous and the apostles. In fact, some believe Paul to be a false apostle. Jesus in Revelations does not mention there is a 13th apostle.

 2009/11/6 22:38
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

In fact, some believe Paul to be a false apostle.



Seeing how this is your first post here, let me say if you are going to even remotely entertain such a notion as this, I hope this is your last post. We are a serious group of Christians in this forum who love the Lord Jesus Christ, and desperately want to see God move in our lives. I would encourage you to read, listen, and learn. If you are looking for a fight, you might get one from time to time. But, you are in the wrong place. There are better forums on the internet for such.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/11/6 22:51Profile









 Re:


Hello KingJimmy,

I do not know why you jumped to the conclusion that I was looking for a fight, and what made you assume I was not a Christian and do not love my Lord Jesus.

All I wanted to do was to point out that TrueFaithSav had been really badly treated, if this is indeed a forum of true believers. And if I were entertaining a wrong idea about Paul, should you not lovingly try to correct me rather than ostracize me straight away? What if I were a non-believer just seeking to learn?

Leo_Grace said that "As Christians we are supposed to follow Christ and Him alone" -- yet, people would jump to Paul's defence when it is pointed out that many of Paul's teachings contradict those of Christ. The world seems to have more Paulinists than Christians.

 2009/11/7 18:28
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

Quote:

FreddieFish wrote:

Hello KingJimmy,

I do not know why you jumped to the conclusion that I was looking for a fight, and what made you assume I was not a Christian and do not love my Lord Jesus.

All I wanted to do was to point out that TrueFaithSav had been really badly treated, if this is indeed a forum of true believers. And if I were entertaining a wrong idea about Paul, should you not lovingly try to correct me rather than ostracize me straight away? What if I were a non-believer just seeking to learn?

Leo_Grace said that "As Christians we are supposed to follow Christ and Him alone" -- yet, [b]people would jump to Paul's defence when it is pointed out that many of Paul's teachings contradict those of Christ[/b]. The world seems to have more Paulinists than Christians.



[b]There are no contradictions between the teachings of Paul and that of Jesus Christ[/b]. I am hoping that your statement was merely a grievous slip and not an outright challenge to the sanctity and infallibility of Scripture.

[i]2Ti 3:16 [b]All Scripture is God-breathed[/b] and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.[/i]

No one needs to defend the apostle Paul for he is not an opportunistic peddler of false doctrine, as are some who visit this forum to sow confusion. Paul's words and his teachings are divinely inspired and consistent with the rest of Scripture, of which it is an essential part. It was the Lord Jesus Christ himself who sought the Pharisee named Saul (later named Paul) and anointed him with the Holy Spirit to move greatly in the ministry of preaching the true gospel to the early Christians.

There are many peace-loving and long-suffering members here who will not allow any post that contains heresy or blasphemy to go unchallenged. We would expose and correct such error immediately out of love for God and for our fellow men who may be misled by false teachers.

Your first two posts in this forum lack wisdom, to say the least. Please consider your words more carefully if you are here in good faith. If you come to promote falsehood, you will not succeed.

 2009/11/7 19:19Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

I do not worship the apostle Paul or in any way deify our beloved brother. But let me be so bold as to say that the life Paul lived and the gospel he preached was the very embodiment of Jesus Christ. Was Paul perfect in everything he said and did in his life and ministry? Of course not. But he is the greatest example this world has ever seen of what it means to be a Christian. I would be so bold as to say that the the Lord Jesus Christ was the embodiment of the Father, and Paul in his life and ministry was the embodiment of Jesus Christ. "For me to live is Christ" was more than just a cute devotional and theological saying for him, it was a reality that he regularly experienced and walked in. Let me be so bold as to say that if it were not for the likes of the apostle Paul, we would hardly begin to know how to follow Jesus Christ. Paul showed us what the Christ life was like in flesh and blood. The apostle Paul is the chief paradigm of the faith once and for all handed down to the saints.

I am a disciple of Jesus Christ first and foremost. But, I am also a disciple of his apostles, of whom Paul is our greatest example. If your interpretation of Christ does not agree with the interpretation and example established by the apostle Paul, you haven't even begun to understand Christ.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/11/7 20:53Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

We all know our brother
Paul came years after the
Day of Pentecost. There
were 120 saved in the
upper room, then about
3,000 souls, and the Lord
kept adding “daily as
should be saved” (Acts
2:41, 47). We also know our
salvation is one thing, then
comes the knowledge. Paul
says in 1 Timothy 2:4,
“Who will have all men to
be saved and to come unto
the knowledge of the
truth.” Thank God it only
takes a sincere believer to
be saved; it’s the knowledge
of the truth where we
miss the mark.
Yes, Paul comes later,
but listen to how he writes,
“And I thank Christ Jesus
our Lord who hath
enabled me, for that he
counted me faithful, putting
me into the ministry;
who was before a blasphemer,
and a persecutor, and
injurious: but I obtained
mercy, because I did it
ignorantly in unbelief,
and the grace of our Lord
was exceeding abundant
with faith and love which
is in Christ Jesus. This is
a faithful saying, and
worthy of all acceptation,
that Christ Jesus came
into the world to save sinners;
of whom I am chief.
Howbeit for this cause I
obtained mercy that in me
first Jesus Christ might
shew forth all longsuffering,
for a pattern to them
which should hereafter
believe on him to life everlasting”
(1 Tim. 1:12–16).
Am I missing something
here in my reading of verse
16? Paul says “in me first”
and “for a pattern to them
which should here after
believe….” How can he be
first and a pattern to them
which should believe afterward?
(Pattern: the original,
the mold, the example.)
I was re-reading time
and again “The Sufficiency
of Grace” by Richard
Cassidy in a Life in the Son
magazine. He says Paul
used the word grace 81
times in his letters while
others only a few times.
(Peter uses it 10 times, the
most of the others.) Could
Paul be the first to fully
understand grace and
mercy? Could he mean he
was first to receive and
experience this grace and
mercy? This could well be
because we must not forget
the way he received his
gospel of grace, by revelation
of Jesus Christ (Gal.
1:12). It stands to reason
that, if I was born again
and, years later, another is
born again also but he
speaks as the first to
receive mercy and grace, I
would question his claim.
Maybe he knows something
I don’t. If he did and
it came from God, well, you
can be sure I would be
knocking at the throne’s
door. God is not a respecter
of persons.
I really believe Paul, the
first and the pattern. For
sure Paul knows something
by revelation we
don’t get by sense knowledge.
Is this the reason the
enemy works overtime to
stop believers from following
Paul, who follows
Christ? (1 Cor. 11:1) When
I first read Romans 1:2, I
thought I was to read the
Bible to have my mind
renewed and be transformed.
Not so! In the Old
Testament, the “old man”
does not have the mind of
Christ (1 Cor. 1:16). No
PIERCING WORDS
OF TRUTH
PART 1
By Frank Gonzales
way! If I am to be transformed,
I need the mind of
Christ; and to have this, I
must stay close to Paul and
his writings. Peter, when
he first preached, didn’t
know this. How can
Christians not see this?!
Why is it that Christians
don’t understand that in
the book of Acts, when it
says, “They spoke the word
of God with boldness” and,
“the word increased” and,
“many received the word”
(Acts 4:31; 6:7; 8:14, and
other places), that the
“word” spoken was not New
Testament word. Paul is not
even around yet, and hasn’t
yet written any letters.
Peter preaches that they
must repent and be baptized.
Did Peter know “that
God was in Christ reconciling
the world unto Himself,
not imputing their trespasses
unto them” (2 Cor. 5:19)?
Did Peter know (remember,
Jesus told them) that the
Holy Spirit came to reprove
the world of sin “because
they believe not on me”?
(John 16:9) Did Peter know
that our message to the
world is the reconciliation
message (2 Cor. 5:19)?
Peter was a witness that
Jesus was raised from the
grave, but did Peter know
that the old Peter died with
Christ and was raised with
Christ? (Rom. 6:1–6) Did
Peter know about the new
covenant (Heb. 9:15–17).
Peter understood the law,
but did Peter know that
“Christ is the end of the law
for righteousness to every
one that believeth” (Rom.
10:4)? Did Peter know that
the law was our schoolmaster
to bring us to Christ,
that we might be justified
by faith (Gal. 3:24)?
My fellow Christians,
Peter did not know any of
these truths because they
and much more were written
by Paul, and Paul had
not yet received the gospel
of grace. Peter was a good
preacher, but not according
to New Testament knowledge
(Rom. 10:2). Let me
say that God did bless and
God did save people like He
does today, even those who
preach law, but is it
because Jesus “ever liveth
to make intercession for
them” (Heb. 7:25)?
In Hebrews 5:2, the
Word says that the high
priest had compassion on
the ignorant and on them
that are out of the way.
Jesus is today our High
Priest (Heb. 4:15). How He
must intercede for us!
So please let us move
past Peter, who had much
to learn, and follow Paul, as
he follows Christ. Peter did
say that Paul had wisdom
given to him, that there
were things hard to understand
(2 Peter 3:16). Of
course, the gospel of Paul
came by revelation, that of
Peter by sense knowledge. I
mean, how hard is it to
understand do’s and don’ts.
This was given to me when
I was a child, and there
were no Christians around. END:



I hope I am not missing something here, but Paul says many times the Gospel of Christ in a person is "My Gospel", not revealed to him by man but by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. Paul also says in the fulness of time, God chose Paul to give us this final Gospel, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory". This message was given to me by revelation also, some 30 years after I was saved, "Christ in me the Hope of Glory".

Don't let Satan destroy what God has given us in and through Paul by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

"All of scripture is;" especially in the Final Gospel from Paul.

Colossians 1:24-28 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

"Fulfill the Word of God"? Only Paul could say this.

All this comes from other than myself, and in this in which I am in total agreement with I thank the Author of this article and Christ Life Fellowship, Life in the Son Magazine, for this revelation and truth of Paul.

PIERCING WORDS
OF TRUTH
PART 1
By Frank Gonzales

www.christ-life.org

This is not an advertisement or given as an offertory for donations, but a clear message of what others and many on these forums believe of Paul, whom we are to follow.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2009/11/7 20:55Profile





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