SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Was the Apostle Paul A Hypocrite?

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 Next Page )
PosterThread
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
KingJimmy wrote:
Quote:
We are only "in Adam" when we are alive.
That is why it says that "all in Adam are dying"
You can't be dying until you are alive.

The author of Hebrews insists that the Levites paid tithes to Melchizedek while they were "in Abraham," and based on this, argues for the superiority of Christ's priesthood.

[b]Heb 7:9[/b] [color=660000]And [b]as I may so say[/b], Levi also, who receives tithes, paid tithes in Abraham.[/color]
The term "as I may say so" tells us that Hebrews 7:9 ia an Idiom.
Idioms are not to be made as a doctrine, especially to back up one's theology.

An idiom is:
My grandfather is 74, and he plays golf every day – it's a sport you can play even as you head into the sunset, so to speak.
Even if New Yorkers obeyed all the rules, New York would still be, so to speak, an unruly city.
so to speak.

Quote:
Quote:
Likewise, just as Adam was kicked out of the Garden, so were we, however, when Adam sinned, it was only him who was affected and inured guilt.

Romans 5:18 insists that Adam's transgression resulted in the condemnation of all men, not just Adam.

[b]Romans 5:18[/b] [color=660000]Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.[/color]
Lets follow the analogy:
"as by" = by way of the same manner as
"even so by" = this way also
[b]1.[/b]
by the offense
by the righteousness

[b]2.[/b]
of one (Adam)
of one (Jesus)

[b]3.[/b]
judgment came
the free gift came

[b]4.[/b]
upon all men
upon all men

[b]5.[/b]
to condemnation (with no repenting)
unto justification of life (with repenting)

This verse must be equal in both parts; if condemnation comes involuntarily, then Justification must also come involuntarily also.
If Justification is not forced upon all men, then condemnation must not be forced upon all men either.

Therefore, in whatever way that judgment came upon all men, so also justification came upon all men; which is by choice in putting faith in/on Christ; Judgment comes by the choice of sinning and justification comes by the choice of faith.

It is the individual's choices that determine whether they are condemned or justified.
If you choose to sin, you will be condemned.
If you choose to trust in God, you will be justified.

Quote:
Quote:
Americas debt is not a new born child's personal debt.
Only personal debt is held to one's account.
The personally will not be forced to pay.

Lets get real here.

So, let's tell our children that our debt to China is simply ours, and that they are under no liability to pay them back if we fail to do so in our lifetime. I don't think China will take to kindly to that.

We are talking about being held personally accountable, not corporately.

 2009/11/12 10:03Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receives tithes, paid tithes in Abraham.
The term "as I may say so" tells us that Hebrews 7:9 ia an Idiom.
Idioms are not to be made as a doctrine, especially to back up one's theology.



Again, the author of Hebrews does this very thing. He uses the fact that Levi was in Abraham's loins to prove the superiority of the priesthood of Melchizedek over that of the levitical priesthood. He does the very thing you say he cannot do.

Quote:

This verse must be equal in both parts; if condemnation comes involuntarily, then Justification must also come involuntarily also.



Actually, this is the point. Justification is something that happens to us passively. That is the crux of the Reformations split with Rome, that in verses like Romans 1:17, being declared righteous is passive in the Greek. It is something that happens to you, just as condemnation is something that happens to you. And both happen to you by God. We experience condemnation through Adam's condemnation, and likewise, we experience justification and life through Christ's righteousness, not our own.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/11/12 11:14Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

We are talking about being held personally accountable, not corporately.



The doctrine of corporate solidarity sees no distinction.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/11/12 11:32Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
KingJimmy wrote:
Quote:

Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receives tithes, paid tithes in Abraham.
The term "as I may say so" tells us that Hebrews 7:9 ia an Idiom.
Idioms are not to be made as a doctrine, especially to back up one's theology.

Again, the author of Hebrews does this very thing. He uses the fact that Levi was in Abraham's loins to prove the superiority of the priesthood of Melchizedek over that of the levitical priesthood. He does the very thing you say he cannot do.

It is not a "fact" that Levi was in Abraham's loins, it is "so to speak".

That means Levi was [b]not[/b] literally in Abraham's loins, but metaphorically to prove a point.

In reality, The sperm of Levi wasn't even in Abraham; not even Jacob's sperm was in Abraham.
Therefore, in reality, to say that Levi was in Abraham's loins "in fact" is non-scene.

Quote:
Quote:
This verse must be equal in both parts; if condemnation comes involuntarily, then Justification must also come involuntarily also.

Actually, this is the point. Justification is something that happens to us passively.

No, it is not a passive thing, we must first choose to put our faith in/on Christ & what He said & done.
This is not a passive thing, but an active.

My point was that just as the one is, so is the other.

According to some, condemnation is automatic because of Adam; one does not need to even sin to be condemned.
Now, for that verse to be correctly parsed, one must automatically be made righteous with out any faith or repentance on our part.

To understand that verse correctly, one must understand it this way:
Righteousness does not just happen with out you reacting to God by faith & repentance, so condemnation does not just happen to you with out you reacting to God in no faith & unrepentance.

The condemnation only comes after ones "age of accountability" comes. Until then, one is innocent and not condemned.

 2009/11/12 12:01Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
KingJimmy wrote:
Quote:
We are talking about being held personally accountable, not corporately.

The doctrine of corporate solidarity sees no distinction.

Yes it does.
No one goes to hell because they are born, just because Adam sinned and no one goes to heaven just because Adam is there.

Furthermore, if it is as you say, that the "doctrine of corporate solidarity sees no distinction" between Adam & me, then I would be made righteous by God clothing Adam with the skin of an animal (Gen 3:21) and not go to hell because of my personal sins; knowing that when God, himself clothes a person, it is considered making one righteous.

Adam is in heaven so all mankind will be in heaven.

 2009/11/12 12:21Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

It is not a "fact" that Levi was in Abraham's loins, it is "so to speak".



A "so to speak" is Hebrews assertion of this fact. Your dismissal makes this verse altogether unintillegible, and shows you do not understand some simple exegesis. The argument of Hebrews 7 is null and void unless what he asserts is in fact true. In Hebrews 7, the author is trying to demonstrate that the priesthood of Melchizedek is superior to that of the levites. He does this by showing that while in Abraham, the levites paid tithes to Melchizedek, and thus showing submission to the priesthood he would later receive. Secondly, he shows that even though the Levites were later granted a priesthood, their priesthood was not as great as Melchizedek. For those who are greater bless the lesser, and since Levi was still in Abraham when Melchizedek blessed Abraham, it is shown that Melchizedek's priesthood is therefore greater.

This is a simple summary of the argument made in Hebrews. Indeed, this is a common thing done throughout the Scriptures. For example, when God made a covenant with the Jews at Mt. Sinai. It wasn't merely with the people standing before Him that He made it, but it was automatically extended to include all those who would be born as the children of those whom God entered into covenant with. And likewise, when God finally judged Israel and Judah, it wasn't just merely for the sins of that particular generation that those nations suffered wrath. Rather, their generation received the wrath of many generations in one generation. Example after example could be multiplied of this doctrine as used in the Scripture, of which Hebrews 7 and Romans 5 make great examples.

Quote:

No, it is not a passive thing, we must first choose to put our faith in/on Christ & what He said & done.
This is not a passive thing, but an active



This is grammatically and theologically incorrect. When one is declared righteous, it is done so in the passive Greek voice. Meaning, it is something that happens to the individual, and it is something the individual receives.

Quote:

My point was that just as the one is, so is the other.

According to some, condemnation is automatic because of Adam; one does not need to even sin to be condemned.
Now, for that verse to be correctly parsed, one must automatically be made righteous with out any faith or repentance on our part.



Indeed, as one is, so is the other. Such is simple logic. And this logic holds up according to the interpretation I have put forward. Condemnation is autmoatic because we are born in Adam. Likewise, righteousness is automatic for those who are born again into Christ.

Quote:

Righteousness does not just happen with out you reacting to God by faith & repentance, so condemnation does not just happen to you with out you reacting to God in no faith & unrepentance



Of course, this righteousness is not to be understood apart from Paul's doctrine of justification by faith. Indeed, Paul in Romans chapter 4 goes through great pains to show we are justified by faith. Romans 5 is about the grounds by which God can justify a man by faith. As Paul says in Romans 5:19, Adam's disobedience made us sinners, but the obedience of the One (Christ) made us who believe righteous.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/11/12 12:23Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Adam is in heaven so all mankind will be in heaven.



I believe Adam will be in heaven, as it appears he received a covering for his shame from the Lord. But at this point, his personal salvation doesn't have anything to do with ours, because we were still in the body of sin and death that was part of his fallen nature. His fallen nature still continued to exist after he received atonement for his sin, of which fallen nature we are a part of, and that is forever a part of this world until God brings about a new heavens and new earth.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/11/12 12:27Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Adam's fall is also why God sent Jesus Christ into the world. Jesus Christ is called "the last Adam." He is the beginning of a new creation that God is bringing about. Even if Adam did get saved after his fall, his salvation didn't undo the effects of his fall on the world. After the fall, his access to the tree of life and the ability to live forever was denied. So, in order to restore the creation to God's desired pattern, God has created another Adam, a new federal head under which the human race is to be restored to its immortality and glory. Through the new birth available in Christ, a new race of people have been born. We are renewed spiritually by regeneration, and now we are a people who await a resurrected and glorified body, and a new heavens and a new earth in which rigtheousness dwells. And there again the tree of life will exist, which will be for the "healing of the nations," for us to partake of throughout all eternity.

Amen.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/11/12 12:35Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Quote:

"And there again the tree of life will exist, which will be for the "healing of the nations," for us to partake of throughout all eternity."

We the born son's and daughters of God are already partaking of the tree of Life. Christ is the Tree of Life. We already have the living Christ in us, The incorruptable Seed of the Father.

The Born Again were chosen to be in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

To be born again we must have the Seed of the Father, Jesus Christ in our Spirit which is no longer the abode of our old father satan. If the Spirit of Christ is not in us we are, "none of His".

The Body of Christ is not a nation. The Body of Christ is His Church. The healing of the Nations are for this earth when Christ comes with His Saints and the Father's son's and daughters', That is when the Nation of Israels chosen remnant will be revealed and partake of the Tree of Life and the rivers of living water, for all the rest of the nations of the earth dwelling 1000 years. We already have flowing out of us by the Christ that is rebirthed in us the rivers of flowing water by which we will never thirst again.


1 Peter 1:16-23 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: (((((Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.)))))

And, who is the Word? John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Jesus Christ is the Tree of Life which the Nations will be partakers of for their healing, "by His stripes we are healed", by His stripes they will be healed and partakers of the river of life, no longer in darknes but the Light, who is also Jesus Christ, in whom we are already in the light and living by His life that is birthed in us of the Father. What glory we already have, The Father, The Son making Their abode with us and the Holy Spirit in us for ever.

Romans 8:9-14 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit (Christ)that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit (Holy Spirit)do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

"Son's of God", by the birthing of Christ in us, which is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory".

Paul speaks of this very loudly and ofter in all his epistles; Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Perfect son's, before the Father and Joint Heirs with Christ of our heavenly kingdom, which Christ is preparing for us in our mansions of Glory in the Fathers House, where we are already seated with Christ in the heavenlies, awaiting our redeemed bodies, which will be just like His changed in the twinkling of an eye on resurrection day of The Body of Christ His Church, not nations.

This is who we are in Christ, not what we are in this body of flesh which we groan to rid ourselves of, which will happen, for now this is our fast, He being not with us as He was with the Apostles, for this we fast. We don't fast in our Spirit for that is already Christ's Spirit, we are learning not to fast in our soul, for we have the mind of Christ and the Holy Spirit is teaching us all things which Christ has given Him to reveal to us. We will no longer fast in the flesh when we are changed, for we shall be with Him and like Him before the Father in flesh and bone, no blood, for the life of the flesh is in the blood and blood cannot enter the Kingdom already prepared for us in our Father's House.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2009/11/12 19:53Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

We the born son's and daughters of God are already partaking of the tree of Life



Yes, true. But we live presently in the "already...but not yet" aspect of the kingdom of God. That is, we are experiencing presently what Paul says in Ephesians 1 is but a downpayment of the fullness that is yet to come. A downpayment is never the full amount.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2009/11/12 19:59Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy