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HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3179


 Re:

Quote:
Hi HeartSong... This sounds a lot like the "prosperity" view that people who have faith will not get sick.


Chris,

You could argue away the moon. I just pray that you do not argue away your salvation - for that is one of the things that He saves us from - sickness and death - but only if you believe.

"Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth." -3 John 1:2

 2009/10/25 18:08Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi HeartSong...

Quote:
Chris,

You could argue away the moon. I just pray that you do not argue away your salvation - for that is one of the things that He saves us from - sickness and death.


Is this necessary, sister? I did not cut you down or publicly worry that you will "argue away your salvation" simply over a view about medicine or vaccines.

I disagree with what seems to be a belief in a Scriptural prohibition against medicine and vaccination. While you may think that it is Biblical, I do not. I am quite convinced that it is also medically accurate. While you may argue against medicine and/or vaccination from a spiritual perspective, what about all of the people of this world? Perhaps they don't have the "faith" to avoid getting sick. After all, Jesus himself said that the sick need a doctor (Matthew 9:12-13).

That said: I have hardly ever been sick since I became a believer. I have had a couple of colds and I even had strep throat once (I caught it while it was going around at school). Yet I wouldn't judge my experiences or the illnesses of others by some notion that it is the result of a lack of faith. I have known babies and infants who died from illness. Are we to assume that this is the result of a lack of faith?

I believe in Biblical prosperity. However, I have a difficult time with the notion that we can have perfect bodies on this side of Eternity. We are still confined to this fallen world. Age itself is likely a result of the curse upon Adam. Every time that I see an old person who needs to wear glasses, I am reminded that we are still confined to this fallen world. Sometimes, our bodies just aren't functioning like they should. Sometimes, people develop conditions that aren't normal. Sometimes, people contract viruses.

Yes, I understand that the Lord can prohibit it...and I pray that He does. However, I do not feel the need to judge those who are sick. Nor do I feel the need to criticize those who might choose to receive subsequent or preventive treatment either.


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/25 18:22Profile
wind_blows
Member



Joined: 2009/1/4
Posts: 353


 Re:

Heartsong

Are you saying that people who go to the doctor, use medicine are lacking faith? Are you saying that people who get sick are some how lacking in faith? Are you making this a salvation issue?

You keep posting stuff about Chris salvation and implying that because he does not agree with your opinion on not taking medicine or going to a doctor he is some how in sin or danger of loosing his salvation. I think you owe him an apology. There is nothing in the bible or from Jesus instruction that tells us it is sin to go to the doctor. Just because you see it as a lack of faith does not make it so. There have been many many occasions when I have had a sick family member and after much prayer felt the leading of the Lord to seek medical attention. God always provides the means to pay for the visit and He always has guided the doctors hand in diagnosing the illness. All the credit and glory goes to God. He has brought about healing by using the doctor and the medicine. Just as He uses our jobs that he blesses us with and provides us with to feed us, house us ect.

in Him
Elizabeth

 2009/10/25 18:30Profile
IWantAnguish
Member



Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343


 Re:

There is a video you can find on the web, a journalist being interviewed on a Russian news station.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4SmFxyust0&]Here[/url]

As for the mercury contained in the vaccine... here's what the FDA states...

“Thimerosal is a mercury-containing organic compound (an organomercurial). Since the 1930s, it has been widely used as a preservative in a number of biological and drug products, including many vaccines, to help prevent potentially life threatening contamination with harmful microbes. Over the past several years, because of an increasing awareness of the theoretical potential for neurotoxicity of even low levels of organomercurials and because of the increased number of thimerosal-containing vaccines that had been added to the infant immunization schedule, concerns about the use of thimerosal in vaccines and other products have been raised. Indeed, because of these concerns, the Food and Drug Administration has worked with, and continues to work with, vaccine manufacturers to reduce or eliminate thimerosal from vaccines. Thimerosal has been removed from or reduced to trace amounts in all vaccines routinely recommended for children 6 years of age and younger, with the exception of inactivated influenza vaccine.”

Basically, 'we know its dangerous, but we're gonna use it anyway.'

========

Quoting again from the FDA website...

========

The multi-dose formulation contains thimerosal, added as a preservative; each 0.5 mL dose contains 24.5 mcg of mercury.

A single 0.5 mL dose of Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine contains sodium chloride (4.1 mg), monobasic sodium phosphate (80 mcg), dibasic sodium phosphate (300 mcg), monobasic potassium phosphate (20 mcg), potassium chloride (20 mcg), and calcium chloride (1.5 mcg). From the manufacturing process, each dose may also contain residual amounts of sodium taurodeoxycholate (≤ 10 ppm), ovalbumin (≤ 1 mcg), neomycin sulfate (≤ 0.2 picograms [pg]), polymyxin B (≤ 0.03 pg), and beta-propiolactone (< 25 nanograms).

The rubber tip cap and plunger used for the preservative-free, single-dose syringes and the rubber stoppers used for the multi-dose vial contain no latex.


_________________
Sba

 2009/10/25 18:58Profile
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4779


 Re:

Hi IWantAnguish...

I will look at the Russian website later on. However, do you have a link for your quote about the mercury in the Swine Flu vaccine? I looked up the vaccine at the CDC website, and it contains nothing about mercury. I do realize that EVERY vaccine and medication includes some sort of preservative (especially necessary in vaccines), however I am interested in seeing the FDA website that you took this claim from.

I would add that I do not take a "[i]we know its dangerous, but we're gonna use it anyway[/i]" from that paragraph. Rather, it seems like they were aware of concerns and were working with pharmaceutical companies to remove any possibly dangerous preservative. I would like to see the original statement/website in order to validate its authenticity or application to this current vaccine.

Thanks!


_________________
Christopher

 2009/10/25 19:14Profile
Leo_Grace
Member



Joined: 2009/6/14
Posts: 703


 Re:

[i]Jer 29:11 For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.

Ro 8:28 And we know that [b]in all things[/b] God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.[/i]

Dear HeartSong,

No one will criticize you for your decision to avoid vaccinations or medical services, if that is what God has placed in your heart, as a test of faith that He will care for you and heal you of all infirmity. If that is His way with you, then praise God for it!

In the same way, I don't think it is fair for you to be so rabidly critical of those who believe that God can and will use vaccinations and other medical services to provide for their health needs. Our God is sovereign over all the earth, and He can use all things to serve His purpose if He so desires (Ro 8:28).

Let me tell you of my experience how God provided for my health:

Back in early 2006, my family and I were facing a grave financial crisis. We had just lost our small business, we were up to our eyeballs in debt, and the home we lived in was in the process of foreclosure. Praying for a way to provide for my family, God led me to take the state tests to qualify as a secondary school math teacher in California, and to start a new career as a high school teacher.

A few months before foreclosure would force us out of our home, a close friend offered to allow us to occupy a new property they had bought in the Central Valley, free of rent until such time that I found work and could afford to pay rental on the house. Having no other option at that time, my family and I gratefully accepted the offer, and we moved 200 miles away to a city where we were strangers, to start over.

Very quickly, I completed all test requirements to teach high school math, found a teaching job in a nearby school district, joined the teacher's union, and started my new career as a teacher in June 2006. up to that time, I had never been seriously sick and had never been hospitalized.

Six months later, during the Christmas holidays, I suffered severe recurring diarrhea and vomiting. By early January 2007, I went to the hospital ER because of an obstruction. Three weeks later, after a series of tests and after I had lost 30 pounds, I was told that I was suffering from Stage 2 colon cancer.

Throughout this series of misfortunes, God was working miraculously to provide for my needs. On hindsight, I was amazed at how wonderfully God worked things out for my good. Just 8 months before, I had no job, no income and no health insurance. When I was found with cancer, I had a good job with excellent health insurance, and I was actually living only 15 minutes away from a major cancer treatment center that served the Central Valley. In fact, my cancer was found exactly on the month when my full heath insurance coverage kicked in. If it had been found just one month earlier, my illness would not have been covered because of the mandatory 6-month waiting period from the start of the insurance policy for coverage of dreaded diseases. There was no doubt in my mind that, at just the right time, God provided my health insurance and the medical services available where I lived for my care and healing.

I underwent surgery for resection (removal of the tumor) and colostomy. Within 6 more months, my cancer metastasized and progressed to Stage 4 carcinomatosis, with tumors too many to count all over my abdominal wall. I was given the most up-to-date cancer treatment available in the form of 20 months of chemotherapy (FOLFOX6 and FOLFIRI) with Avastin. I could tell from my doctor's demeanor, that things did not look good for me at all. They had said that carcinomatosis responded poorly to chemotherapy, but I continued to have faith that God could solve that problem for me.

In all that time, I was working full time to provide for my family. God gave me the strength and fortitude to work despite the nausea, fatigue, diarrhea, neuropathy, compromised immune system, fluid retention, etc. I lost my job as a public HS teacher because of budget cuts, but I quickly found another teaching job in a Christian high school even closer to home. I managed to keep my health insurance for an additional 18 months through the COBRA program. Through all these, I never felt neglected by God. In fact I rejoiced in the way that things consistently fell into place for me, and I counted on the Lord for the strength to continue working and to recover from my cancer.

Last June, six months before my health insurance would end, I asked my doctors to arrange for surgery to reverse my colostomy and restore my digestive functions. I had to do this since I could no longer afford it after my insurance expired. Regular CT/PET scans and blood tests seemed to indicate that my chemotherapy treatments were able to control the malignancies that had spread into my abdominal cavity, but the real test would be when the surgeon opened me up to look and see. The colostomy reversal surgery was performed last July and my surgeon (the same doctor who saw that my cancer had spread all over my abdominal cavity) was surprised to find no sign whatsoever of cancer.

I have now recovered fully from my surgery and I'm slowly regaining my strength. My digestive functions are all back to normal, and so far, I am classified as "no evidence of disease" (NED).

It is not easy to come back to NED status after suffering from Stage 4 colon cancer. I will never stop praising God for healing me of this dreaded disease, and I know that he used many things: my friends, my family, my job as a teacher, my health insurance, and the medical services available in my new hometown to arrange for my healing.

[u]ADDENDUM: To show you all how wonderfully God provided for my health needs, let me summarize for you[/u]:

1. God arranged for me to get excellent health insurance coverage exactly 7 months before I was found with colon cancer. This timing allowed the 6-month waiting period for coverage of dreaded diseases to pass before my cancer was discovered.

2. In the 3.5 years that I had this excellent health coverage, I underwent 4 major surgeries and two cycles of chemotherapy covering 14 months with bi-weekly infusions averaging a discounted cost of $23,000 per infusion, and 6 months of Avastin infusions only. All in all, I estimate the total cost of my medical treatment for colon cancer to be slightly in excess of $1 million.

3. This health insurance that God provided for me ended this month, roughly 90 days after my last major surgery, covering all post-operative recovery and other minor medical issues.

4. After all these cutting-edge cancer treatments, which I could never have afforded without God's help, I recovered from Stage 4 metastatic colon cancer and am now with "no evidence of disease".

My family and I praise God everyday for the wonderful way He provided for my health care.

 2009/10/25 19:37Profile
nearthecross
Member



Joined: 2009/5/13
Posts: 74


 Re:

Hi ccchhhrrriiisss. You're a doctor, aren't you? :-)

Quote:
Wow. Correct me if I am wrong, but are people on this thread opposed to all/most/some vaccinations?



I'm undoubtedly opposed to all vaccinations. Sounds like medical heresy, doesn't it? That's understandable. Most of us have been taught throughout our lives that vaccines are beneficial, thus anyone who dares question that claim is looked upon as crazy. Throughout history many scientific and medical pioneers have been persecuted, ostracized and even imprisoned because their discoveries did not conform to the standard practices and popular beliefs of their day.

Quote:
If this is the case, then upon what evidence are you basing this position?



There is plenty out there. And I'm not talking about "fringe" groups of "conspiracy theorists"...many reputable doctors and specialists who are adamantly opposed to vaccines have formed entire organizations to combat this malpractice and inform the public of the potential dangers involved.

Quote:
Influenza vaccines are inarguably effective against the flu. The number of flu victims has dropped dramatically in nations that have adopted quick flu vaccination programs.



I don't doubt there may be some benefit to vaccines. However, much research reveals that there are greater risks. Whether or not the number of flu victims have decreased as a result of vaccines in third world countries is a matter for debate.

Quote:
The polio vaccination has almost eradicated polio -- which was a disease that horribly affected many people in the United States and around the world each year and led to countless deaths, disfigurations and permanent disabilities. Vaccines have effectively stopped the bubonic plague, smallpox, cholera, hepatitis A, diphtheria and numerous other diseases. The effectiveness of vaccines in these cases is not disputed by either medical experts or historians.



Actually, it [i]is[/i] disputed. It depends on what expert you ask. Here's a good link for you to read if you have the time. Something to consider. http://www.vaccines.me/articles/rgcxz-the-myth-of-vaccines-causing-20th-century-mortality-decline-excellent-paper-by-mckinlay-and-mckinlay.cfm

Quote:
Paul encouraged Timothy to "drink a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities" (I Timothy 5:23). Why? Wine (and/or grape juice) contain elements that are helpful to the digestive system. Some of those elements are altered by time and are actually enhanced to be additionally helpful to the body (such as the anti-oxidants).



Yes, I completely agree. But there is a great difference between eating and drinking something living and God-made, and taking a chemically altered/synthetic/potentially toxic pharmaceutical component. Wouldn't you agree? God tells Adam and Eve how to take care of their bodies in Genesis 1:29. Plants, fruits, and seeds. Natural, living foods nurture our bodies, aid our immune systems, and help to heal us of diseases.
That is not to say I am against all conventional medicine; I believe it has it's place treating some acute conditions and emergencies. For long-term, chronic degenerative conditions, however, conventional medicine has made relatively little progress. Many of the drugs manufactured to treat these diseases are ineffective and, at best, only help to cover the symptoms, but never get to the root of the problem.

Quote:
I am puzzled by those state that my opinion is typical of the "medical establishment" and then repeat a possible vaccination/autism link that is supposedly found by people within the medical establishment (but without citing that source for their argument).



I meant that this is the prevalent view within the medical establishment...the official view of most conventional medical practitioners. Your arguments were typical of the pro-vaccine advocates. However, not everyone shares these views. There are those in both conventional and alternative circles that have studies proving that vaccines are harmful. Consequently, the studies of these professionals are largely ignored and they themselves are usually labeled "quacks".

Quote:
It is almost as if someone is suggesting that there is something "sinister" on behalf of the medical experts or government in regard to the swine flu, the swine flu vaccination or other vaccinations.



There [i]is[/i] something sinister going on; it's called "greed", and the Lord warns us of this sin many times throughout the Bible. Brother, do you not believe the awesome truths found in Romans 3? All have sinned. There is none good, no not one. As the saying goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's a sad fact that the pharmaceutical companies are the largest contributors to med schools and universities for research. They exret great power. It is well-known that there is a revolving door between government organizations like the FDA and and the very industries they are supposed to be regulating. FDA employees quit the FDA and work for pharmaceutical companies; they then quit these companies and go back to work for the FDA. So who's regulating who? Look it up, it's no "conspiracy theory". I personally know someone who has worked evaluating studies of pharmaceutical medications, and has personally witnessed to what great lengths these pharmaceutical companies will go to have their drugs approved, and their "studies" deemed valid, despite clear evidence indicating that the drugs are toxic and have adverse reactions. Studies can be manipulated to show something that is just not true. All for money.

Quote:
This reeks of "conspiracy" -- and a "conspiracy" that is spread by rumors that aren't validated by any citations of evidence.



Again, typical of many doctors, the "conspiracy" card is drawn. Do you honestly believe that the pharmaceutical industry cares about your well-being? If we as believers can err, and view precious souls as mere numbers, how much more do you think godless, idolatrous people can view you as a mere statistic on a piece of paper?

As far as evidence, I'll provide you with a couple citations and some links. God bless you, brother.

"The thing that bugs me is that the people think the FDA is protecting them. It isn’t. What the FDA is doing and what the public thinks it’s doing are as different as night and day,"
Dr Herbert Ley, former Commissioner of the FDA.

"They lie like Scoundrels."--Dean Burke, Ph.D., on The American Cancer Society. (Burke was employed by the National Cancer Institute for 34 years).

"The FDA serves as the pharmaceutical industry's watchdog, which can be called upon to attack and destroy a potential competitor under the guise of protecting the public," Dr James P. Carter, M.D., author of RACKETEERING IN MEDICINE, the SUPPRESSION OF ALTERNATIVES.


Ingredients in Vaccines:
http://www.informedchoice.info/cocktail.html

An article by Russell Blaylock, MD, a renowned neurosurgeon:
http://www.whale.to/a/blaylock34.html
http://www.russellblaylockmd.com/

National Vaccine Information Center: http://www.nvic.org

Vaccines Me: http://www.vaccines.me/

Some videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1z7KSEnyxw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLo83fR1ijw

www.mercola.com also has much great information.

 2009/10/25 20:56Profile
HeartSong
Member



Joined: 2006/9/13
Posts: 3179


 Re:

Any time that we rely upon something other than the Lord for our protection, or provision, we open ourselves up to the potential consequences of that thing that we are choosing. We are in effect taking ourselves out from under the umbrella of His protection on that thing – that being whatever it is that we are choosing over Him. This is how evil is perpetrated upon us – by the things that we choose.

The Lord has made this abundantly clear to me and has required that I put it before you. It is now up to you as to whether or not you believe this to be truth.

Please forgive me my terseness. I have images of people choosing to inject themselves with poison. I have images of people injecting innocent children with poison – and all of this with a smile on their face as if they are now safe. They are not safe – they have just made a deal with the devil.

If you look down upon me for putting my faith in the Lord, then so be it. But I must warn you that everything that we say is being recorded in heaven and anyone that comes out and blatantly tells others to put their faith in something other than the Lord is in effect turning others away from the Lord.

There is abortion, and there is spiritual abortion. It is quite possible that there are some that would have turned to the Lord but for the words that they have read upon these pages. Now, instead, they will be putting their faith in something other than the Lord. These are potential brothers and sisters that might have been born, but now, for the words they have read, remain dead.

We all must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. I am not telling anyone what they should, or should not do, but for heavens sake do not point others away from Christ!

 2009/10/25 22:15Profile
wind_blows
Member



Joined: 2009/1/4
Posts: 353


 Re:

sister
I understand that you feel deep conviction on this matter and you should walk that out in the Lord, but to come across towards Chris as if his faith is some how lacking is not right. Again this is something that God is showing you, that is so awesome, walk it out! No one here is telling you not to or putting you down for following your beliefs. I happen to agree with you about this particular vaccine not being safe.
However I do not agree that by going to the doctor a person is relying on the doctor more then God. That is like saying that by working at our jobs we are not trusting in God to provide as He said He would for our daily living. I have prayed about this on many occasions in my own walk and I can say that with all confidence there are times when the Lord has led me to stay home and rest, but there have also been times when He has clearly led me to the doctors. This does not make my faith or reliance on the Lord any less. In fact just as Leo shared in order to just pay to see the doctor it has caused my faith to grow because on so many occasions I had no idea how medical bills would be met, but God was and is always there to provide.

You do not get sick, I praise God for that!
You said we must all walk out our salvation and in that you are correct, but questioning Chris salvation as you have done is not.

Please consider what I have shared
in Him
Elziabeth

 2009/10/25 22:43Profile
IWantAnguish
Member



Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343


 Re:

[url=http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/QuestionsaboutVaccines/ucm186102.htm]FDA List of H1N1 Vaccine Ingredients[/url]

There's the link...

Thimerosal is 50% or so of mercury...


_________________
Sba

 2009/10/26 0:09Profile





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